Solid Front Axle Fascination (SFAF): Help Me Understand
- Thread starter RichinRidgewood
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RichinRidgewood
New member
Good question.
Back in the early 2000's Ford was trying resurrect the Bronco. One of the Off Road enthusiasts working in Truck said to me "They better put a solid front axle on it."
I said "Why"?
He said "Jeeps got it and it's better" while waving his hands in the air describing why its better and not convincing me.
I said "Jeeps are piles of %$# and solid front axles suck *&%. Ive got one on my niche truck. It's a terrible front end for so many reasons."
Needless to say no progress toward convincing me was made. The economy collapsed. Bronco got canceled.
Fast-forward to 2020 and I see a thread here about the New Bronco and the same thing comes up "It better have a sold front axle".
facepalm
So I said "Let's start a thread about why SFA keeps coming up over and over and over again as being so great even though technically and performance wise they are only one step above "an oxcart" (Car and Driver) figuratively speaking. Try to convince me and others who think like I do and who have had similar experiences as I have had. There are some smart people here. Let's get the definitive answer."
Here we are.
thennen
New member
Again, I think the word 'fascination' applies to only a small group of people. 'Preference' might be a better word. I'll say this: I now own a 2019 TRD Off Road 4Runner. I think it's a wonderful vehicle, and I'm quite pleased with it. Like my previous two 4Runners (1988 and 2001), I expect zero trouble from the IFS as long as I own it. But then, my off-roading is occasional, and not very intense.
If I were given the choice of solid axle or IFS on my 2019, I personally would choose IFS - not because it's better, but because it fits my life better. If my life instead included lots of serious off-roading and the solid axle were an option, I might go with it. I'm no expert, but I read about IFS component failures in this forum way more often than solid axle failures. IFS component breakages on intense trails aren't uncommon from what I've read. If I'm going to be physically far from help, I think the solid axle is less likely to strand me.
Others on here know much more about this than me. I'm technically inclined, and I value durability, but I'm no drivetrain expert. The concept of the solid axle just appeals to me because it seems to be more durable. IFS appeals to me because of its ability to isolate impacts and vibration across the vehicle.
As for the rear, only a few 'trucks' (loosely-used-term) have that. There must be a reason.
Jetboy
New member
Neither the HMMWV nor the TAK are intended as rock crawlers. They carry heavy stuff over rough terrain. It's a very different design criteria.
Also the military is literally the opposite of notoriously cheap. New JLTVs cost $400,000. Most recent HMMWV's cost $220,000. That's anything but cheap. They even found a way to make a Hilux shittier AND more expensive. The military generally is really bad at these types of things as a result of design by committee and their RFP processes. The HMMWV is pretty decent for what it does. It's about 5 times as expensive as it should be. But the idea to use IFS/IRS for moderate terrain at moderate speeds is reasonable. That's really neither here nor there as an argument for whether IFS/IRS is better for all situations. It's not. The military unimogs are far better in the "last mile" off road. But they're very rough riding at speed.
cb1111
Member
Disregard Ritchie Rich as he doesn't even appear to be good at Google searches.
He has no clue what terrain a HMMWV was designed for, but he knows from this discussion about the SFA, that the SFA is crap and therefore doesn't want to buy a 4R because it has a solid rear.
My DAF had a rubber band transmission, but I suspect that the Subaru is a bit more advanced.
ound:A Rav4 is undoubtedly a better vehicle than the 4R. Is there a Rav4 forum we can refer him to? The two vehicles are almost the same except one is a 4R and the other is a R4 and has the coveted IFS and IRS.
SpeedyKevin
New member
From my military experience, they would only change over something if it costed them less lol. Also, the HMMVEE rarely ever leaves a base now. Well that was how it was when I was over in the sandbox.
RandyBobandy
New member
What the **** did you just ****ing say about independent rear suspension, you little *****? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class at devry university of suspension design, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on moab, and I have over 300 off road stickers on my bumper. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top off road driver in the entire baja peninsula. You are nothing to me but just another obstacle. I will flex my suspension on you with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my ****ing words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, ****er. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of suspension engineers across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're ****ing dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can rock crawl in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my stock shocks. Not only am I extensively trained in rock crawling but I have access to the entire arsenal of pepboys and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your ****ing tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're ****ing dead, kiddo
SpeedyKevin
New member
How the hell did you type that with a straightface
RandyBobandy
New member
I could barely contain my excitement as I hit submit
patkelly4370
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RichinRidgewood
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gfxcruncher
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op2:This thread is almost as entertaining as this one: https://www.tetongravity.com...29815-Interesting-Tahoe-Craigslist-Ad-(NSR)
Man [MENTION=493311]RichinRidgewood[/MENTION] I hope you're just yanking everyone's chain and joking around. If you're actually serious, you must be a real joy around the campfire...
RichinRidgewood
New member
This thread is almost as entertaining as this one: https://www.tetongravity.com...29815-Interesting-Tahoe-Craigslist-Ad-(NSR)
Man [MENTION=493311]RichinRidgewood[/MENTION] I hope you're just yanking everyone's chain and joking around. If you're actually serious, you must be a real joy around the campfire...
Olde English 800 Malt Liquor 40oz Chug (42sec) 1 Pull Kill - YouTube
The Best Part of that video starts at 3:20. Mr. MexicanConXtion has some talent.
I learned a new phase from it too "...b**ch foam...". That's the foam left in to bottom of your 40 that didn't make it into your cake hole while you were chugging it.
Its been a good morning.
cbielat
Senior Member
[MENTION=493311]RichinRidgewood[/MENTION] I have one of each. Both have their place. In your post, you had mentioned the solid axle in the front. Aside from the very early model 4runners(84-85) having the solid front axle, they've always had independent front suspension. The IFS can take only so much abuse and also paired with a small front diff, things go wrong in the off road world. IFS is fine for what 99% of the members on here do with their trucks.
Ida4runner
New member
I have both a solid axle and a ifs 4runner, I can tell you from my experience the solid axle spanks the ifs offroad and the ifs spanks the solid axle on pavement.
The ifs suspension doesn't have enough travel being limited by CV axle working angles and the diffs/cv's are not meant to withstand the torque of large tires and lockers.
Solid axles are easy to upgrade and there is large support of vendors to find parts.
there's a reason why solid axles are still very popular,they plain work and are proven.
Having said this if I'm going to be driving dirt roads and do mild 4wheeling I will always pick the Ifs because the ride quality is better.
Yes you will see IFS now dominating the Hammers race but they are running seriously high dollar suspensions and comparing that to our 4runners is apples to oranges.
Is one better than the other 100% of the time? no,each has their place.
The ifs suspension doesn't have enough travel being limited by CV axle working angles and the diffs/cv's are not meant to withstand the torque of large tires and lockers.
Solid axles are easy to upgrade and there is large support of vendors to find parts.
there's a reason why solid axles are still very popular,they plain work and are proven.
Having said this if I'm going to be driving dirt roads and do mild 4wheeling I will always pick the Ifs because the ride quality is better.
Yes you will see IFS now dominating the Hammers race but they are running seriously high dollar suspensions and comparing that to our 4runners is apples to oranges.
Is one better than the other 100% of the time? no,each has their place.
Ida4runner
New member
It's funny how the solid axle fanbois come out of the woodwork when their paradigm is challenged.
I think the above post nails it. Depends on what kind of off-roading you do and even then, there can be benefits/drawbacks to each.
From a production car standpoint with durability and overall cost taken into consideration, I think the solid rear axle makes the most sense for the 4Runner. I also think IFS is the best choice for the front.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't mind one with IRS, but at least the current ones are linked.
Did someone say articulation?
And just what did that suspension cost? and in reality what 4runner could you put that under?
This has a stupid amount of flex,can be built in any driveway and would cost a fraction of that IFS contraption.
RichinRidgewood
New member
And just what did that suspension cost? and in reality what 4runner could you put that under?
This has a stupid amount of flex,can be built in any driveway and would cost a fraction of that IFS contraption.
Yes and I think thats a good point.
RichinRidgewood
New member
Application Summary for Various Front Axle Types Based the Information in this Thread
Application for Solid Front Axles
-Home built recreational vehicles on a budget built to minimize the wenching from the owners wife, mother, girlfriend etc.
-Nostalgic vehicle's (Old Bronco's,) and Jeeps
-Monster trucks
-Some rock crawlers who's teams have helicopters to shuttle their drivers around (per Dr. Jetboy, Phd.)
-Ox carts
-Over the road trucks
Applications for Independent Front Axles
-Technically up to date production SUV's
-Desert Racers
-Paris to Dakar Vehicles
-Increasing Number of KoH competitors
-Current Military vehicles
Please feel free to add to the list
Application for Solid Front Axles
-Home built recreational vehicles on a budget built to minimize the wenching from the owners wife, mother, girlfriend etc.
-Nostalgic vehicle's (Old Bronco's,) and Jeeps
-Monster trucks
-Some rock crawlers who's teams have helicopters to shuttle their drivers around (per Dr. Jetboy, Phd.)
-Ox carts
-Over the road trucks
Applications for Independent Front Axles
-Technically up to date production SUV's
-Desert Racers
-Paris to Dakar Vehicles
-Increasing Number of KoH competitors
-Current Military vehicles
Please feel free to add to the list
For me the advantage of SA is strength only. No IFS suspension of any design can handle a straight on impact with a 6 ft rock at 40mph and suffer anything other than complete catastrophic failure. A reinforced solid axle can (and has) survived this type of impact with only nominal damage to the drivers face and hands from the velocity change. In this case, the SAS simply moves the damage from itself to other parts of the vehicle which may be a benefit in some situations.
As far as safety for towing heavy loads, a solid rear axle is required due to its lateral strength. Vertical strength is easy to build into an IRS, but lateral strength is nearly impossible to get without significant cost in both materials and engineering time.
All IFS designs are inherently weak in brute force comparisons with solid steel parts, though they may perform better on all terrain that does not include smashing directly into multiple 2000lb rocks at high speed.
As far as safety for towing heavy loads, a solid rear axle is required due to its lateral strength. Vertical strength is easy to build into an IRS, but lateral strength is nearly impossible to get without significant cost in both materials and engineering time.
All IFS designs are inherently weak in brute force comparisons with solid steel parts, though they may perform better on all terrain that does not include smashing directly into multiple 2000lb rocks at high speed.
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