TonyB66's Ownership -> Build Thread (2000 Limited)

[TonyB66]

Well, I'm not quite giving-up on the Cadillac horns (4 - A,C,D & F) just yet... I see an opportunity in this location, two on each side.

With the driver side wheel/tire at full articulation to the right (photos), it has 2+ inches of clearance. While not protected by the skid, the bottom of the horns are above the skid. I think that spot will work well. The passenger side might be more difficult due to the wiper reservoir, but it looks doable...

This low, I'm wondering about damage from water crossings too.

I'm not going to put the grille back until I install these or other horns.

Note, the factory disc horns (DENSO and Maruko) are rated at 105 decibels. Contemplating these at 113 dBs.

https://smile.amazon.com/HELLA-0112...pY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

Those are at a somewhat lower frequency (averaged at 385 Hz) compared to most offerings too, so should be deeper-sounding. Since a 10 dB delta is supposed to equate to a double or be 100% louder, these should be 80% louder. Between that, and likely with a deeper tone, mounted up high in the factory location well off the ground, these are being strongly considered. Also, disc horns are, or at least were the most reliable/dependable types too... Heck, for less than 20 bucks delivered, just ordered!

 

[phattyduck]

Since a 10 dB delta is supposed to equate to a double or be 100% louder, these should be 80% louder.

6dB is a doubling in volume. The 8dB difference equates to ~2.5 times as loud...

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

6dB is a doubling in volume. The 8dB difference equates to ~2.5 times as loud...

-Charlie

Appreciate you chiming-in Charlie. Ok, you just had me check, which is a good thing at 50+, lol.

If I'm reading correctly, +3 dB makes a doubling in sound intensity or energy and +10 dB is a doubling of loudness/volume.

I just read that you are an electrical engineer, so I welcome your thoughts. Safe to say it should be somewhat louder. I'm not expecting a deep base, but with it being well under 400 Hz, it should not sound like the higher pitched meep-meep...

It comes later today. Think it's worth experimenting with a relay?

 

[phattyduck]

Appreciate you chiming-in Charlie. Ok, you just had me check, which is a good thing at 50+, lol.

If I'm reading correctly, +3 dB makes a doubling in sound intensity or energy and +10 dB is a doubling of loudness/volume.

I just read that you are an electrical engineer, so I welcome your thoughts. Safe to say it should be somewhat louder. I'm not expecting a deep base, but with it being well under 400 Hz, it should not sound like the higher pitched meep-meep...

It comes later today. Think it's worth experimenting with a relay?

Mathematically, 6dB is doubling when you are talking about voltage, and 3dB is doubling when you are talking about power (voltage into a resistive load)...

It is weird, but a 10dB increase in audio levels will (generally) be perceived by the ears as twice as loud. It isn't always a simple thing converting instrument readings to human perception. 1dB is often sited as the smallest 'easily discernible' difference in volume to the human ear.

So, I made a mistake up there... 8dB would only be around 80% louder (which is still a LOT!)

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

Mathematically, 6dB is doubling when you are talking about voltage, and 3dB is doubling when you are talking about power (voltage into a resistive load)...

It is weird, but a 10dB increase in audio levels will (generally) be perceived by the ears as twice as loud. It isn't always a simple thing converting instrument readings to human perception. 1dB is often sited as the smallest 'easily discernible' difference in volume to the human ear.

So, I made a mistake up there... 8dB would only be around 80% louder (which is still a LOT!)

-Charlie

Good stuff Charlie. I follow you and I wouldn't call it a mistake. Literally, electrically, it was not... As we learned in Physics and other classes, the real world as we experience and perceive it is not in a vacuum. Think it might be at max loudness (+80%) with the stock wiring? Looks to be pretty thin gauge wire...

 

[phattyduck]

Good stuff Charlie. I follow you and I wouldn't call it a mistake. Literally, electrically, it was not... As we learned in Physics and other classes, the real world as we experience and perceive it is not in a vacuum. Think it might be at max loudness (+80%) with the stock wiring? Looks to be pretty thin gauge wire...

Had to do a bit of searching... If you are using the Caddy horns, they draw something close to 5A each - so all 4 together would overpower the stock 15A HORN fuse.

Testing for voltage drop in the stock wiring would NOT be fun...

If whatever option you choose draws over 10A or so, I'd add an appropriate extra fuse/relay to power them.

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

Had to do a bit of searching... If you are using the Caddy horns, they draw something close to 5A each - so all 4 together would overpower the stock 15A HORN fuse.

Testing for voltage drop in the stock wiring would NOT be fun...

If whatever option you choose draws over 10A or so, I'd add an appropriate extra fuse/relay to power them.

-Charlie

Charlie, sorry, I should have clarified... I'll likely install the Caddy horns on the MINI, or sell them. The kit comes with a relay. Would be fun on the MINI though, but since I've had it on a diet (about 2,200 lbs), that wouldn't exactly make sense...

So, I was wondering about those Hella disc horns. And, they just arrived while typing...

They are somewhat larger, thicker too. On the box...

120 watts total, 12 volts, 10 amps... Right on the cusp of what you stated above. Thinking of going with a relay, but I might experiment first to see if there is a difference, a notable one.

 

[thezentree]

I just read that you are an electrical engineer,

no fkn wonder he's a wiring diagram wizard - he's a sparky!

 

[TonyB66]

no fkn wonder he's a wiring diagram wizard - he's a sparky!

Charlie is also a fantastic resource for seemingly all things 3rd gen, heck Toyotas in general...

I just remembered that I ordered a box of these last year.

Amazon.com: ONLINE LED STORE 5 Pack 5-Pin 12V Bosch Style Waterproof Relay Kit [Harness Socket] [12 AWG Hot Wires] [SPDT] [30/40 Amp] 12 Volt Automotive Marine Relays for Boats Auto Fan Cars: Automotive

So, I will likely go with a relay...

A couple months back I replaced the delta-checking O2 sensor out of need to pass smog. At the time I purchased the front A/F ratio sensor as well, but never installed it, until today. While there were no codes or readiness issues, I figured it best to swap it so both are essentially done at the same time. I put maybe just 100-200 miles on my 4Runner since passing smog...

The old one out.

Cleaned-up the 12mm nuts, painted.

and installed...

I'll put back the skids tomorrow, time permitting.

Since the one I removed was not causing any issues, I'm keeping it in case it's needed in a pinch...

I reset my average mileage on the UG, hoping to see an improvement.

EDIT/ADD:

Breather for front diff.

I'm going to extend this up to the firewall. Best to replace the factory hose, or just add an extension? Not sure if these hoses are known failure points...

Hey, do our e-lockers have a breather? I thought I read that it does, but I didn't see one. I didn't look more than a minute though...

 

[thezentree]

Charlie is also a fantastic resource for seemingly all things 3rd gen, heck Toyotas in general...

facts.

EDIT/ADD:

Breather for front diff.

I'm going to extend this up to the firewall. Best to replace the factory hose, or just add an extension? Not sure if these hoses are known failure points...

Hey, do our e-lockers have a breather? I thought I read that it does, but I didn't see one. I didn't look more than a minute though...

That pic is the factory breather? I was thinking yesterday about how I need to find the breather on my front diff and make sure it's at least as high as my rear breather extension.

And yes, the elocker actuator has a separate breather. I don't know how high it goes from the factory (the junkyard cut the harness off when they pulled the axle) but it's wrapped up in the elocker harness.

 

[phattyduck]

120 watts total, 12 volts, 10 amps... Right on the cusp of what you stated above. Thinking of going with a relay, but I might experiment first to see if there is a difference, a notable one.

The Hella diagram there shows a 16A fuse, and our horns already have a relay (their diagrams shows the OEM setup as going directly through he horn button with no relay). I wouldn't want to run 10A through a horn button... But 10A through a 15A fuse for such an intermittent application is good.

I'd say you are just fine going with the OE wiring in this case. Less wiring and complications for a non-critical system to get in the way of more important things. Simplify and add lightness, as Colin Chapman would say...

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

...That pic is the factory breather? I was thinking yesterday about how I need to find the breather on my front diff and make sure it's at least as high as my rear breather extension.

And yes, the elocker actuator has a separate breather. I don't know how high it goes from the factory (the junkyard cut the harness off when they pulled the axle) but it's wrapped up in the elocker harness.

Yes, that image is the factory front diff breather on my 2000. I believe the '01 and '02 models will have two though... I might just remove the whole thing and replace the hose. I think I only have 3/8" at the time though.

Thanks for confirming that the elocker has its own breather. Maybe I'll need to remove the protective guard to see it.

Since I cut the previous 5/16" paracord too short for the knot of choice (terminal figure 8 loop), I ordered another 10' and made two two tie-downs for the Hi-Lift jack. It's very secure wedged down between the rear seat backs and wheel wells.

 

[phattyduck]

That pic is the factory breather? I was thinking yesterday about how I need to find the breather on my front diff and make sure it's at least as high as my rear breather extension.

And yes, the elocker actuator has a separate breather. I don't know how high it goes from the factory (the junkyard cut the harness off when they pulled the axle) but it's wrapped up in the elocker harness.

The '01/'02 front diffs are electrically operated, but the breather should still end up in the same location (driver's side fender well, just below the fuse box). I believe the actuator breather t's into the main breather so only one hose comes up to that visible location. If you are worried about that one, also consider the trans breather (top of trans case near the front where it meets the bellhousing) and the transfer case breather (on the shifter assembly, I think).

I'm not worried about any of them other than the rear diff breather though - I would be getting water in the cab at the same time as they get submerged...

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

The '01/'02 front diffs are electrically operated, but the breather should still end up in the same location (driver's side fender well, just below the fuse box). I believe the actuator breather t's into the main breather so only one hose comes up to that visible location. If you are worried about that one, also consider the trans breather (top of trans case near the front where it meets the bellhousing) and the transfer case breather (on the shifter assembly, I think).

I'm not worried about any of them other than the rear diff breather though - I would be getting water in the cab at the same time as they get submerged...

-Charlie

Helpful information Charlie.

While I wouldn't want water in the cab on the 3rd gen, when I had FJ-40s, it was pretty common and no big deal. I removed the doors and tops, selling one, the other became a dog house for my Akita. When I was living and working in SF, after heavy rains, it would fill with water. I remember starting her up, with hefty bag on the soaked seat, accelerating hard for about 50 yards, cutting the wheel and jumping on the brakes and the remaining water would fly-out. Sort of reminded me of a dog shaking-off water after getting drenched, lol. Fond memories...

I read last night of an account where this front diff extension hose had cracked over time. I'll likely replace it, and in doing so, go about a foot higher.

Hey, I found the elocker breather line. I suppose I thought it was electrical earlier. The one with the coiled supportive wrap around it...

It actually goes-up fairly high, where it clips here.

Removed, it looks like this.

It appears to be a hard plastic line all the way down to the unit, but not sure.
The rubber hose on the outside looks comparable to what's used for wiper fluid.

It does look to be about 1/8" ID. I'll look for the aforementioned tee or better yet Y-shaped barb (5/16" x 1/8" x 5/16").

 

[phattyduck]

Helpful information Charlie.

While I wouldn't want water in the cab on the 3rd gen, when I had FJ-40s, it was pretty common and no big deal. I removed the doors and tops, selling one, the other became a dog house for my Akita. When I was living and working in SF, after heavy rains, it would fill with water. I remember starting her up, with hefty bag on the soaked seat, accelerating hard for about 50 yards, cutting the wheel and jumping on the brakes and the remaining water would fly-out. Sort of reminded me of a dog shaking-off water after getting drenched, lol. Fond memories...

My tech at work drives an FJ40... his second or third (the first one bought new in '72, I think?) and I want to buy it from him every time he drives it to work. All stock, plenty of patina... He keeps the doors and hard top on it though!

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

My tech at work drives an FJ40... his second or third (the first one bought new in '72, I think?) and I want to buy it from him every time he drives it to work. All stock, plenty of patina... He keeps the doors and hard top on it though!

-Charlie

Awesome. Down there, no need for a top, but that's me... Had a '72 also (with a 289 actually), that I totaled, and then a '75. With the aforementioned akita, as a pup. Ha, I suppose me too, lol...

Yup, I would like one again. Seriously thought about getting one. Damn expensive now. That said, getting parts is what I need to research and better understand first... I'd part with the money otherwise.

Coming on Friday:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZVLXKF5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

25' of 5/16" fuel line coming tomorrow. About 20 bucks, much less than local shops, made in USA too, apparently...

https://smile.amazon.com/Fuel-Insid...46074&sprefix=5/16+fuel,industrial,231&sr=8-3

So, I'll be extending the front diff breather about a foot (replacing the entire hose) and in the rear, joining the rear diff and locker, and extending upward to one breather; I imagine to the popular fuel fill location, but not sure. I suppose it is not good practice venting to the interior. Not sure of the composition of the gases. If just hot air, nothing toxic, I'd be inclined to run it up the rear/D-pillar. I want to remove the side panel again anyways. Thinking out loud...

 

[TonyB66]

The Hella diagram there shows a 16A fuse, and our horns already have a relay (their diagrams shows the OEM setup as going directly through he horn button with no relay). I wouldn't want to run 10A through a horn button... But 10A through a 15A fuse for such an intermittent application is good.

I'd say you are just fine going with the OE wiring in this case. Less wiring and complications for a non-critical system to get in the way of more important things. Simplify and add lightness, as Colin Chapman would say...

-Charlie

Charlie, I made some time to research the factory horn wiring, I think it was for a 2002 though, so maybe not the same as my 2000. The 2002 had different horns as I recall...

There is no relay per se, but it does go through the "Body ECU", which I imagine serves that function, and what you were referring to above...

Is the factory horn wiring adequate for 10 amps though? The hot leads look rather small, and I don't believe 14 gauge.

12 Volt Wiring: Wire Gauge to Amps | Offroaders.com

The 5/16" fuel hose arrived today and I extended the front breather. I removed another skid plate and after a good 20 minutes I located it from below and found a way to access it with my hand and tools. A tight fit and I realized that while I'd be able to remove the old hose, getting-on the new one might be more difficult. It ended-up not being that bad...

With the hose off (the silver hard line).

And out...

The condition of the factory hose was ok, but it clearly has seen better days.

The new 5/16" hose fit darn near perfectly. With a little dish soap, it slid on easily. As seen here, I re-used the factory clamp.

The front diff breather now sits about 14" higher, and for now resides here.

Next, maybe tomorrow, the rear breather for the rear diff and locker...

 

[phattyduck]

Charlie, I made some time to research the factory horn wiring, I think it was for a 2002 though, so maybe not the same as my 2000. The 2002 had different horns as I recall...

There is no relay per se, but it does go through the "Body ECU", which I imagine serves that function, and what you were referring to above...

Is the factory horn wiring adequate for 10 amps though? The hot leads look rather small, and I don't believe 14 gauge.

12 Volt Wiring: Wire Gauge to Amps | Offroaders.com

The body ECU in the later 4Runners likely has a relay integrated into it that does the job of the separate relay on the earlier 'Runners.

There's a big difference between adequate and ideal. There's a few things going on here - safety and performance.

From a safety perspective, it is perfectly adequate. The wire will not be catching on fire or anything. Heck, it won't even have a chance heat up with anything but the most aggressive horn use.

The real question is whether the voltage drop on the wire will be acceptable. I'm suggesting that you should try it out without the supplemental relay and see if you like the performance.

To really know what is going on, you would have to measure the voltage drop in the wiring while it is honking - that's why I mentioned that testing would be a pain! If you get a decent amount of voltage drop in the wiring, then an extra relay and beefier wire would improve performance (if you even need more performance! you may already be happy with it).

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

The body ECU in the later 4Runners likely has a relay integrated into it that does the job of the separate relay on the earlier 'Runners.

There's a big difference between adequate and ideal. There's a few things going on here - safety and performance.

From a safety perspective, it is perfectly adequate. The wire will not be catching on fire or anything. Heck, it won't even have a chance heat up with anything but the most aggressive horn use.

The real question is whether the voltage drop on the wire will be acceptable. I'm suggesting that you should try it out without the supplemental relay and see if you like the performance.

To really know what is going on, you would have to measure the voltage drop in the wiring while it is honking - that's why I mentioned that testing would be a pain! If you get a decent amount of voltage drop in the wiring, then an extra relay and beefier wire would improve performance (if you even need more performance! you may already be happy with it).

-Charlie

Charlie, thanks for the knowledge share, broken down to safety and performance. Given the typical, short burst-like use of horns, I sensed that safety would not be an issue...

For performance, hoping to get much of the claimed 113 dB(A), I had decided to go with a relay. While I have not yet cut the stock horn wiring, it looks to be about 20 gauge. With relays on-hand and plenty wires, I got a bit done...

12 gauge from the battery. Will insert a 15A fuse later. Yellow and red wires soldered with two heat shrink tubes.

That was connected to the relay (30/red). The blue wire on the relay (87), also 12 gauge, will go to the horns, splitting into two wires, each 14 gauge.

The white wire (86) is the positive trigger and black (85) is ground, both 16 gauge...

I'm going to fab a bracket and put both horns on the driver side, not blocking airflow through the condenser and radiator.

I bent the metal tab on the relay and I found a good spot for it here (between driver headlight and battery).

Charlie, or anyone else, on the relay, is 87a basically a 12 volt pass-through (constant power), or maybe only so when 87 is not energized, in this case my horns? If so, I see a use for it...

A slight change of gears, I found a great place to secure my HT (ham radio, handheld transceiver).

That said, I'll modify the base of the seat so that the the belt clip grabs it better.

I'll trim or notch the metal so it's 1 1/16" deep (belt height) by 11/16", front to rear of 4Runner.

When I have the seat removed to do that cutting, I plan to use the factory seat power for this in order to charge the HT when it's down there.

The rear diff breather is done, but I await some clamps to finish the connection for the E-locker breather...

 

[phattyduck]

Charlie, or anyone else, on the relay, is 87a basically a 12 volt pass-through (constant power), or maybe only so when 87 is not energized, in this case my horns? If so, I see a use for it...

The 87a pin is connected to the 30 pin when the relay is not energized - it is the "normally closed" connection. When power is applied to the relay coil, it disconnects from 30 and will be unpowered / disconnected.

What do you want to turn off when the horn is active? :behindsofa:

-Charlie