NoDak
Senior Member
interesting graphic I found in an article.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...r-car-profits-beat-ford-gm-chrysler/23852189/
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http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...r-car-profits-beat-ford-gm-chrysler/23852189/
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Toyota vs Big 3 profit margin
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KidVermicious
New member
And now we know why Toyota is conservative with the tech - they can afford to be.
LittleCaesar
New member
In reading the whole article the Big 3 big cheese complain that the Japanese and Toyota are engaging in currency manipulation, ala the yen is devaluing against the dollar and vehicles made in Japan, with Toyota exporting the most over here of any Japanese country, are able to be bought more cheaply than before, thus eroding into potential profit for the big 3.
No mention of Honda or Nissan or what their profit is per auto sold and more than likely is much closer to Toyotas than the Big 3.
The bottom line is that if the Big 3 made products that generated more demand than any of their automobile counterparts, regardless of the country of origin, they wouldn't be crying in their Corn Flakes.
No mention of Honda or Nissan or what their profit is per auto sold and more than likely is much closer to Toyotas than the Big 3.
The bottom line is that if the Big 3 made products that generated more demand than any of their automobile counterparts, regardless of the country of origin, they wouldn't be crying in their Corn Flakes.
When you don't have to put any money into R&D for a decade and people still blindly buy your cars knowing they are basically 10 years old when they are new, you're going to have a huge profit margin.
Look at Porsche, the 911 doesn't really change and they have by far the largest profit margin.
Look at Porsche, the 911 doesn't really change and they have by far the largest profit margin.
Unner
New member
There is a reason people "blindly" buy these cars. They are great cars that will run forever and look better than the others in my opinion. For instance the 2nd gen Tacoma is a 10 year old design, but I would still take it over the new Chevy Colorado. I think it looks better, and it has Toyota reliability.
2014 Warthog
New member
Frankly I think the American car companies are pricing their cars too cheap. They are way less expensive than Toyotas, that's why there's no profit. But they are trying to compete for buyers against more attractive brands in some markets and against each other and pricing out their margins.
They need to win hearts and minds not through cut-throat pricing and multi-grand rebates but though other means. Making the right vehicles, upping quality, better advertising etc...
They need to win hearts and minds not through cut-throat pricing and multi-grand rebates but though other means. Making the right vehicles, upping quality, better advertising etc...
Their quality and reliability is dropping IMO. My wife's 08 RAV4 had a dozen recalls started leaking oil and the WP leaked at only 80k miles. Doesn't really scream reliability IMO. Also I couldn't justify spending close to 40k on a Taco or 4runner knowing it's basically 10 years old.
They have sat on their butts for too long w/o upgrading anything and they are starting to lose buyers. Looking back at Toyota in the mid 90's to early 2000s, I can't believe this is the same company. They actually made fun and exciting cars/trucks back then. Now look at Ford (I'm not an American car guy either) and their cars and trucks are really exciting (they are making a 320 hp AWD Focus for crying out loud)
Ford's profit margin for the next fiscal year will probably plummet since they basically had to redo their factory to make the new F150. It looks like it'll probably pay off for them though.
NoDak
Senior Member
any I can probably bet that Toyota's overall worst is probably still better than ford's best overall.
yeah, our 2009 rav4 has the same recalls, and you know what 1/2 the recalls where for minor crap. I think out of the 5-6 only one was a concern, the oil tube issue. yep I also lost sleep over the floor mat retention clip issue /sarcasm.
and our 2012 Tacoma, that was a stupid recall, a sticker to put over the door jam plate saying the psi was wrong.
like I see, every vehicle no matter the make is going to have recalls, you just have to look at the meat of them as see the true overall picture. and the picture I see with Toyota is a heck of a lot better than the others.
and for the last 30 yrs of owning Toyota's, they have had 1-2 issues per vehicle that has never required major work, unlike the ford, pontiac (fisher-price body stamp, really), mazda, Hyundai, dodge vehicles I have had over the years.
the last straw was this dodge avenger for the son, abs is acting weird, transmission is leaking, brakes are leaking. this weekend I am looking to swap it out for a corolla or camry for the son and be done with the hassle.
forgot to add: dodge only has 45k miles on a 2009.
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RandyDaytona
New member
Funny you should mention this.
I'm on my fifth consecutive Ford truck as a work vehicle. We normally rotate them out at around 60,000 miles, but that can depend on how the budget is from year to year. I've had a 2000 F250, and F150's from 2002, 2005, 2007, and 2013.
They've been pretty bad, all around. Poor reliability, with a LOT of money spent on repairs for things that really shouldn't be happening in a vehicle with under 60K. Poor build quality. Not living up to claims made about certain components (like the Ecoboost engine, which actually gets worse MPG than the V8 I had previously).
The 2007 F150 had more problems than my two 4Runners and my wife's 2005 VW have ever had, combined.
I realize this all just my opinion, and everyone will have their own experiences to compare - especially where vehicles are concerned.
However, I tend to take notice when a personal track record for a particular brand vehicle is bad for this long, over the course of this many different trucks. Most people would never notice this because after the first bad experience, they wouldn't buy another one, so having been forced to drive these things, I get a different perspective (lucky me).
I have traditionally had no say in the selection. That policy has since changed and I will get to choose my next truck. But per contract, it HAS to be from one of the Big 3.
So now, instead of looking at capabilities and advantages, I'm trying to figure out which full-size American-made truck or SUV will be least likely to be a POS.
It really shouldn't be that way. I should be looking for the vehicle with the most strengths, not the one with the fewest weaknesses.
I'm sure I'll discover some merits of these vehicles and not have as much of a jaundiced view once I get into the actual selection process. However, it's not exactly a head-scratcher as to why so many people have chosen a foreign-made vehicle in the last 20 years or so.
If I could have a Tundra, Sequoia or even a 4Runner for my next work truck, I'd make that choice in a heartbeat.
Jernik
New member
Trucks are getting stupid expensive, not just Tacoma/4Runner.
When I was looking, I didn't find anything as/more capable with similar options as my TEP for the price. The XTerra was the only one cheaper, but no sunroof (one of our "must have's") at any price and less space. Reliability has been argued on that one too. But really, the Grand Cherokee, Exploder were both more money and more car-like than truck, and options ratcheted the price up quickly. We won't talk about what Nissan did to the Pathfinder. lol GM models were no bargain either. So, bang for the buck, option for option, in my opinion the 4Runner won out hands down - not even close. And believe me, I was on the web "building my own" like a madman for everything we initially considered.
But on the 10 year old thing, that could be looked at in different ways. Constant change, updates = more working "bugs" out. So by year 3 or so (I'm guessing, don't have hard facts on this) all issues should be worked out of a platform. In theory that would translate to 7 problem free model years of extremely good reliability. Whereas if a style is redone every 5 years, you would only get 2 years of that increased reliability. But on the flip side, you won't have the latest and greatest fancy gadgets. So there's a trade-off, risk/reward, and we all have to decide which means more to us.
ddnww
New member
IDK, ford has quite the line up right now and has made great improvements on technology and quality.
The new gt350r just beat the Camaros time at nurburgring by like 7 seconds, which was the current record.
The new focus rivals the porshe caymann and is already proven to be bullet proof build quality.
The ford raptor has no other truck in its league
The new ford GT has barely been released, so we don't know how it will do, but I think it will be an instant classic.
I also read some statistics showing that ford had the most trucks on the road with over 250k miles.
side note: I guess that graph posted debunks gm fans claims that ford sells more trucks because they sell them for less to commercial fleets.
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NoDak
Senior Member
99% of the usa population could care less about the green hell times of a conventional car on a track. get a track car
its still a pig with lipstick (aka a ford focus), and your willing to bet that build quality of a focus baseline as bullet proof.
imo not really suited for off roading per se. too big, wide, long, unwieldy.
see lightning, syclone, chevy 454 ss,
again pig with lipstick, still a glorified ford mustang
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RandyDaytona
New member
Or in it's price range. It's like the vehicular version of Whole Foods
.But seriously, I will actually give Ford credit for creating a truck with an off-road focus. Regardless of flaws or opinions about the Raptor, they are at least making an effort to put all the off-road stuff into a single package.
I would have possibly considered a Raptor, but again, too pricey.
LittleCaesar
New member
As NoDak hints to above, Ford and the other two to some degree or another are investing lots of of money into their special performance divisions to generate models that won't sell in large numbers. Therefore in the general scope of things it almost ends up being for them a push, hopefully not a loss, for them financially.
A friend of mine used to work for Saturn, then GM, now at BMW. He said GM never paid part suppliers until at least 90 days out, or even longer. Ford is in the same boat. Toyota takes advantage of discounts offered on payment terms by suppliers.
The Big 3 really need to take a course in Econ 101, with paying close attention to the concept of diseonomies of scale. Nissan seems to understand this well, thus taking the Xterra to the grave.
A friend of mine used to work for Saturn, then GM, now at BMW. He said GM never paid part suppliers until at least 90 days out, or even longer. Ford is in the same boat. Toyota takes advantage of discounts offered on payment terms by suppliers.
The Big 3 really need to take a course in Econ 101, with paying close attention to the concept of diseonomies of scale. Nissan seems to understand this well, thus taking the Xterra to the grave.
ddnww
New member
ANYBODY PURCHASING A GT350R OR CAR SIMILAR WOULD CARE ABOUT WHAT KIND OF PERFORMANCE , BRAKES, IRS ETC THIS TYPE OF CAR WOULD HAVE. THATS WHY THEY ARE BUYING IT.99% of the usa population could care less about the green hell times of a conventional car on a track. get a track car
its still a pig with lipstick (aka a ford focus), and your willing to bet that build quality of a focus baseline as bullet proof.
imo not really suited for off roading per se. too big, wide, long, unwieldy.
see lightning, syclone, chevy 454 ss,
again pig with lipstick, still a glorified ford mustang
THE FORD FOCUS HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVEN FOR ITS RELIABILITY, WITH CARS WITH OVER 400K ON THEM WITH NO PROBLEMS.
STILL A BADAZZ TRUCK WITH NO COMPETITION AND SELLING LIKE HOTCAKES
FORD HAS 3 OF THE 5 TOP AUCTIONED CARS IN HISTORY OF AMERICAN CARS. THE NUMBER ONE BEING THE FORD GT40, THE OG FORD GT STILL SELLS FOR MORE THAN RETAIL, I PREDICT THE NEW ONE WILL DO THE SAME, ITS A FORD GT, NO OTHER AMERICAN CAR IS IN ITS CLASS.:driving:
cfranck1
New member
And finally they are actually going to use a "Flat-Plane Crankshaft"
Ford finally took a page out of the Exotics and made a "Track" car by SHEDDING weight.
Following items are deleted:
Rear seat
Air conditioning
Floor mats
Tire mobility kit
Audio system
The "R" gives you odds and ends that the regular gt350 doesn't have.
Track Package:
MagneRide™ damping system
Heavy-duty front springs
Engine oil, transmission and differential coolers
Selectable driving modes
Lightweight metal tower-to-tower strut brace
Gloss-black 19-inch carbon-fiber wheels
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires
Front: 305/30ZR19
Rear: 315/30ZR19
Unique chassis tuning
Large front splitter for increased downforce
Aluminum rear bumper beam
Heres all the info from Ford on the new 2017 Raptor.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2015/01/12/all-new-f-150-raptor.html
NoDak
Senior Member
and everyone of those listed are niche vehicles. which means low volume and issues that the main vehicles they are based on will never have.
yep I want 300+ hp in a ford focus, wonder what will last longer, the transmission or the negative equity
yep I want a big 4x4 truck with 400+ that suited for 1 thing only. for that price I can waste it on a GX460, Rover or some better suited.
GT350, yep I see those all the time drag racing up and down streets trying to shave tenths of second off the newspaper route.
yeah those auctioned cars are before you were born probably.
no one is paying mecum prices on a raptor, gt350, ford focus.
yep I want 300+ hp in a ford focus, wonder what will last longer, the transmission or the negative equity
yep I want a big 4x4 truck with 400+ that suited for 1 thing only. for that price I can waste it on a GX460, Rover or some better suited.
GT350, yep I see those all the time drag racing up and down streets trying to shave tenths of second off the newspaper route.
yeah those auctioned cars are before you were born probably.
no one is paying mecum prices on a raptor, gt350, ford focus.
