4R sales down

[Thai]

no insult taken. people here should be more open to criticism which i can tell you for a fact they are not! they would die for the 4runner if it came to that. and judging by the countless mods you folks here do or wanna do, now why would that be if toyota just made it right in the first place? hey my gx is not all that great either, just check out the lexus gx forum for issues with this hunk of metal...

Hmm, not too long ago, you went out of your way to put down the 4runner and praise the almighty GX...how the times have changed with a little ownership experience! And your comment about modding is...well, shows a lack of thorough thought process.

And BTW, have you been on other car's forums? Are you saying that Jetta owners don't have issues? Or Hyundai? Here was my old post:

Hyundai are definitely going up...but, their long-term durability/reliability is still pretty much unknown. Hyundai/Kia just redesigned their whole fleet...so, there is no track record.

Remember the old saying...you get what you pay for....

Like i wrote above, Hyundai and Kia vehicles have all been redesigned (for the most part)...so, their long term reliability/durability is a BIG question mark. Examples:

2011 Kia Sorento Investigated by Feds for Possible Transmission Failure

Feds Look Into Possible Steering Defect on 2010 Kia Soul

2011 Kia Sorento, 2010 Kia Soul Recalled for Possible Fire Hazard

2011 Hyundai Sonata Recalled for Defective Steering Column

2011 Hyundai Sonata To Be Recalled

My last sentence in above quote says it all.... :nono:

Should it really be a surprise that 4Runner sales are down? The new Jeep Grand Cherokee alone will continue to decimate 4Runner sales now and in the future. When the 4th gen 4Runner was being sold, I chose it over the Grand Cherokee. Now that new generations of both vehicles are out, I'd choose the Jeep for sure.

Although the JGC will surely take sales away from 4runner...as does the Explorer, etc., i would doubt that any organization or survey will crown the JGC in quality or durability. JGC has always appealed to the short-sighted individuals who value bling features over reliability and durability. And for anyone with off-road needs or experience, the JGC is a joke in itself. Jeep lost their ways long time ago with the Grand Cherokee. You want a real Jeep with real roots? Buy Wrangler. Otherwise, JGC heritage is about as deep as the Jeep Compass!

Of course, with gas prices going up and economy going down, both JGC and 4runners will suffer in sales. (In addition, as more off-road parks close down, the value of these off-roaders will diminish.)

Besides, you can deny it all you want, but SUVs like our 4Runners have lots in common with the older station wagons. Sure, they have a higher ride height and usually have 4wd, but other than that they are very similar to the old body-on-frame station wagons from the 70's.

Who cares where the 4runner or modern-day SUV comes from...i just care that they have the equipment and build characteristics that i want for my purpose. It is not like the modern day 4runner shares the frame of the old Jeep Wagon...now, that would be scary!

 

[DocMT]

Although the JGC will surely take sales away from 4runner...as does the Explorer, etc., i would doubt that any organization or survey will crown the JGC in quality or durability. JGC has always appealed to the short-sighted individuals who value bling features over reliability and durability. And for anyone with off-road needs or experience, the JGC is a joke in itself. Jeep lost their ways long time ago with the Grand Cherokee. You want a real Jeep with real roots? Buy Wrangler. Otherwise, JGC heritage is about as deep as the Jeep Compass!

Surely you must realize that nobody needs offroad capabilities in this market segment, right? Maybe that .05% of owners who actually do take them off pavement, but really does it matter to the other 95.5% of buyers/owners?

That said, there are already countless comparison reviews where the Jeep was rated above the new 4Runner when it comes to ride quality & road manners. That's the stuff that most people care about. And for the record, the Jeep does have offroad cred. Everybody knows that except for a few narrow-minded people wearing their rose-colored glasses.

Of course, with gas prices going up and economy going down, both JGC and 4runners will suffer in sales. (In addition, as more off-road parks close down, the value of these off-roaders will diminish.)

That's true, so we have to look at those two vehicles (same market segment) and then compare how well they sold during the same time period. I have a strong hunch that the numbers would favor the Jeep in a huge way, bad economy and all...

Who cares where the 4runner or modern-day SUV comes from...i just care that they have the equipment and build characteristics that i want for my purpose. It is not like the modern day 4runner shares the frame of the old Jeep Wagon...now, that would be scary!

Where it comes from doesn't make a difference. But to deny that our body-on-frame 4Runners are that much different than an old station wagon is just a big case of denial.

 

[M1911]

I think you are selling the JGC short in the offroading department. Optioned correctly, it is capable offroad. No, it isn't a Wrangler, but neither is a 4Runner, not even TE.

Yes, the dependability of the JGC has always been an issue. Rumor has it that Chrysler has been making significant strides, but it will be a while before we know for sure.

 

[Thai]

Surely you must realize that nobody needs offroad capabilities in this market segment, right? Maybe that .05% of owners who actually do take them off pavement, but really does it matter to the other 95.5% of buyers/owners?

That said, there are already countless comparison reviews where the Jeep was rated above the new 4Runner when it comes to ride quality & road manners. That's the stuff that most people care about. And for the record, the Jeep does have offroad cred. Everybody knows that except for a few narrow-minded people wearing their rose-colored glasses.

You mean the same rose-colored glasses that Jeep fanboys wear when it comes down to reliability and durability?

Remember, the off-roading percentages have not changed much...and Jeep GC has traditionally outsold 4runner, but that does not really mean much, right? I mean...the Ford Exploder for years outsold everything not named Camry...but does that put it in the 4runner's league in quality? Nope. I just mean that there are plenty of short-sighted folks out there...and then these same folks b!tch & moan when their warranty goes out or when they have to trade it in and find resale value next to nothing!

Personally, i would not buy a 4th gen 4runner nor pre-2010 FJ Cruiser. Frame issues are not my cup of tea. And the fact that Toyota made specific enhancements to the front part of the frame on the 5th gen (and 2010-up FJ) makes me wonder about the older frame. 2009 4runner Trail was marked out in my book for this reason. I would gladly take a cheaper interior and lose the center differential (biggie for me nonetheless) for a stronger frame.

 

[Thai]

I think you are selling the JGC short in the offroading department. Optioned correctly, it is capable offroad. No, it isn't a Wrangler, but neither is a 4Runner, not even TE.

Yes, the dependability of the JGC has always been an issue. Rumor has it that Chrysler has been making significant strides, but it will be a while before we know for sure.

Sure, it is more capable than a Highlander...but unibody and IRS? Unibody...here comes the creaking and bending! And how do you repair a body damage? How will you maintain structural strength/integrity after it is damaged?

Sure, you can jack the suspension up to the sky, but where is the articulation after that? There is no cross-linking shocks (see Range Rover) to save it from airing its tires at every dimple in the pavement! Air suspension and reliability are NEVER written in the same sentence...and this applies to Lexus stuff too! (And if Jeep uses the same air suspension that is used in Mercedes, then HERE COMES TROUBLE!!) Jeep Quadradrive is traditionally very unimpressive...no better than your average LSD...and certainly no substitute for a locker. I would gladly take A-TRAC over it...and lets not even mention the rear locker in the TE!

I do like the new Chrysler commercials...big fan of N. Suh, but that does not really mean that i will buy a Chrysler 200 either! Like Hyundai, Chrysler is too new to judge. However, unlike Hyundai which revamp their whole lineup with new models, Chrysler is merely doing a facelift on most of their models. The lone exception is the JGC...and while the commercial is appealing, there is a lot of ground b/w the 4runner and JGC in regards to quality, reliability, and durability. (And for that matter, heritage too!)

 

[DocMT]

You mean the same rose-colored glasses that Jeep fanboys wear when it comes down to reliability and durability?

Remember, the off-roading percentages have not changed much...and Jeep GC has traditionally outsold 4runner, but that does not really mean much, right? I mean...the Ford Exploder for years outsold everything not named Camry...but does that put it in the 4runner's league in quality? Nope. I just mean that there are plenty of short-sighted folks out there...and then these same folks b!tch & moan when their warranty goes out or when they have to trade it in and find resale value next to nothing!

Personally, i would not buy a 4th gen 4runner nor pre-2010 FJ Cruiser. Frame issues are not my cup of tea. And the fact that Toyota made specific enhancements to the front part of the frame on the 5th gen (and 2010-up FJ) makes me wonder about the older frame. 2009 4runner Trail was marked out in my book for this reason. I would gladly take a cheaper interior and lose the center differential (biggie for me nonetheless) for a stronger frame.

How are you moving from sales to reliability? Even the biggest Jeep fanboys would likely admit that the 4Runner is a more reliable vehicle in the grand scheme of things. One has nothing to do with the other. And lots of people just don't care---they keep their vehicles during the warranty period and then move on to a new one. So why would those people even be concerned.

BTW, the 4th gen 4Runner has no frame issues. Don't confuse the FJ with the 4Runner. One had frame issues and the other didn't.

 

[DocMT]

Sure, it is more capable than a Highlander...but unibody and IRS? Unibody...here comes the creaking and bending! And how do you repair a body damage? How will you maintain structural strength/integrity after it is damaged?

Sure, you can jack the suspension up to the sky, but where is the articulation after that? There is no cross-linking shocks (see Range Rover) to save it from airing its tires at every dimple in the pavement! Air suspension and reliability are NEVER written in the same sentence...and this applies to Lexus stuff too! (And if Jeep uses the same air suspension that is used in Mercedes, then HERE COMES TROUBLE!!) Jeep Quadradrive is traditionally very unimpressive...no better than your average LSD...and certainly no substitute for a locker. I would gladly take A-TRAC over it...and lets not even mention the rear locker in the TE!

I do like the new Chrysler commercials...big fan of N. Suh, but that does not really mean that i will buy a Chrysler 200 either!

LOL....but you ignore the fact that nobody buys the new 4Runner or the new Grand Cherokee for any kind of serious offroad driving. Nobody cares about the stuff you're talking about. At least not 99.5% of owners/buyers. If they did, then Grand Cherokee sales wouldn't be so high. Don't look now, but there are TONS of them out there already. I probably see about an 8:1 ratio of new Grand Cherokees to 5th gen 4Runners.

 

[Thai]

How are you moving from sales to reliability? Even the biggest Jeep fanboys would likely admit that the 4Runner is a more reliable vehicle in the grand scheme of things. One has nothing to do with the other. And lots of people just don't care---they keep their vehicles during the warranty period and then move on to a new one. So why would those people even be concerned.

BTW, the 4th gen 4Runner has no frame issues. Don't confuse the FJ with the 4Runner. One had frame issues and the other didn't.

Well, if this was the case, then CR, JD Powers, etc. would be out of business and no one would care about them, right??

In fact, as the economy gets tighter, i would bet that most educated folks (rare as they might me) would pick a reliable durable car over one with bling and poor resale value. But, unfortunately, there are still folks out there that get all attracted by bling and cool commercials (e.g. someone like you).

Those people who move on might be concerned about resale value. But, as most Americans are short-sighted, you might be right. Ignorance is bliss.

No frame issue? You might want to use the SEARCH. 4runner issues are not as populated as the FJ, but that might be due to the ownership experience rather than the issues being non-existent. THERE IS A REASON why the front section of the 5th gen frame (and 2010-up FJ) are reinforced. (The rest of the 5th gen frame is very similar to 4th gen from what i read.)

 

[Thai]

LOL....but you ignore the fact that nobody buys the new 4Runner or the new Grand Cherokee for any kind of serious offroad driving. Nobody cares about the stuff you're talking about. At least not 99.5% of owners/buyers. If they did, then Grand Cherokee sales wouldn't be so high. Don't look now, but there are TONS of them out there already. I probably see about an 8:1 ratio of new Grand Cherokees to 5th gen 4Runners.

You miss my point.

 

[DocMT]

You miss my point.

And I think you missed mine. If offroad was a big concern for me, I'd be driving a Wrangler Rubicon.

 

[DocMT]

No frame issue? You might want to use the SEARCH. 4runner issues are not as populated as the FJ, but that might be due to the ownership experience rather than the issues being non-existent. THERE IS A REASON why the front section of the 5th gen frame (and 2010-up FJ) are reinforced. (The rest of the 5th gen frame is very similar to 4th gen from what i read.)

That's right, no frame issues on the 4th gen 4Runner. The FJ obviously had frame issues, it's a well-known fact. The 4th gen 4Runner has never had any known frame issues. Does that mean you can't find some random guy who might have somehow damaged his 4th gen frame? LOL, of course I'm sure that's a possibility, but the fact remains that the 4th gen 4Runner frame hasn't had any issues like the FJ frame has.

And BTW, the reason the 5th gen frame is reinforced is simply because the 5th gen is based off the FJ frame (not the 4th gen 4Runner frame), so it was already known to have issues. Do you really think they would have designed the 5th gen 4Runner on the problematic FJ frame without strengthening it, especially considering the fact that the FJ frame issues were already well known?

 

[DocMT]

Well, if this was the case, then CR, JD Powers, etc. would be out of business and no one would care about them, right??

Wrong. There will always be people who buy "safe" vehicles instead of "exciting" vehicles. You should know that Toyota has a reputation for building solid, but bland and boring vehicles. Fortunately, not everybody looks for these vehicles, as it would make fewer choices for those of us who choose our vehicles based upon more than just reliablity.

In fact, as the economy gets tighter, i would bet that most educated folks (rare as they might me) would pick a reliable durable car over one with bling and poor resale value. But, unfortunately, there are still folks out there that get all attracted by bling and cool commercials (e.g. someone like you).

Those people who move on might be concerned about resale value. But, as most Americans are short-sighted, you might be right. Ignorance is bliss.

Look at the amount of leased vehicles out there these days. As an example, do you really think anyone who has leased Grand Cherokee cares about reliability or resale value? Why would they? The vehicle is under warranty and its value is already predetermined as part of the lease agreement. Don't look now, but people still lease cars far more often they they purchase them.

 

[Thai]

How long is Jeep bumper-bumper warranty? Sure, leasing is great for some folks...but we're getting off the point here. Again, Jeep appeals to the short-sighted individuals who likes bling...like you. I am sure that there are more folks like you, but i understand the folks who are on THIS forum and understand their rationale.

 

[kingpin748]

Jesus, your guys know how to multi-quote correct? What a bunch of post whores.

Hey, I found a picture of DocMT, evensteven, and T4Fun. Now don't quote me on this but I think DocMT is the one on the left.

 

[Thai]

And BTW, the reason the 5th gen frame is reinforced is simply because the 5th gen is based off the FJ frame (not the 4th gen 4Runner frame), so it was already known to have issues. Do you really think they would have designed the 5th gen 4Runner on the problematic FJ frame without strengthening it, especially considering the fact that the FJ frame issues were already well known?

Wow, did not know that FJ and 4th gen frame are so different? You make it sound like they are two different frames altogether!

Hint: 4th and 5th gen frames are very much alike, except for those front reinforcements and slight changes to the shock towers in the rear.

 

[DocMT]

How long is Jeep bumper-bumper warranty? Sure, leasing is great for some folks...but we're getting off the point here. Again, Jeep appeals to the short-sighted individuals who likes bling...like you. I am sure that there are more folks like you, but i understand the folks who are on THIS forum and understand their rationale.

How long? Longer than the lease agreement. Point made.

Where do you keep coming up with the "bling" comments? As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY thing that's even remotely bling about the new Grand Cherokee are the optional 20" wheels. And of course you can't also get 20" bling wheels on the 5th gen 4Runner too.

And for the record, the folks on this forum represent less than a fraction of 1% of all 4Runner owners.

 

[Thai]

Jesus, your guys know how to multi-quote correct? What a bunch of post whores.

You do realize that as soon as i post something, other members post...so, it is kinda hard to "multi-quote" something that has not been written yet!! :moon:

 

[DocMT]

Wow, did not know that FJ and 4th gen frame are so different? You make it sound like they are two different frames altogether!

Hint: 4th and 5th gen frames are very much alike, except for those front reinforcements and slight changes to the shock towers in the rear.

The fact remains that the 4th gen 4Runner does not have the same frame as the FJ. You already know this, but you just won't admit it.

And the 5th gen was built off the FJ frame, not the 4th gen frame. Why is that so hard for you to admit? Even more importantly, if the 4th gen and FJ frames were the same, then why does Toyota say that the 5th gen was based off the FJ frame? LOL

 

[Thai]

How long? Longer than the lease agreement. Point made.

Isn't it 3 years/36k miles? Or did that changed?

 

[Thai]

The fact remains that the 4th gen 4Runner does not have the same frame as the FJ. You already know this, but you just won't admit it.

And the 5th gen was built off the FJ frame. Why is that so hard for you to admit?

Look who's in denial now!!! :roadkill:

There have been a few famous (aka well-known) folks on this "1% of owners" forum who have had issues with the 4th gen frame....