Anyone actually wheel with wheel spaces???

[marshal]

My point is that if your wheels are safe without loctite so are the spacers. Is that a complex concept? It doesn't matter if your putting them on for a day or a decade. That's a nonsensical justification.

fair point.

however, that doesnt work that way. the level of fiction isn't significant enough to allow permanent contact. its 2 polished surfaces interacting with each other. eventually, the lugs will loosen purely by vibration and black magic. the only way to permanently secure the lugs is through adhesive.

 

[Jetboy]

fair point.

however, that doesnt work that way. the level of fiction isn't significant enough to allow permanent contact. its 2 polished surfaces interacting with each other. eventually, the lugs will loosen purely by vibration and black magic. the only way to permanently secure the lugs is through adhesive.

How long does this process take?

I have never experienced this. My experience has been that my sailboat rigging stretches or creeps over many years even at loading around 10% of failure. I suspect lugs will do the same.

 

[marshal]

**** if i know.

 

[Lmteel]

I wasn't ignoring the arguments going on but it is a bit funny. Really, if guys here running spacers say their good and have had no problems I'll take that. If one guy says that one guy in a thousand had problems or failures with them, I'll take that as normal failure. Any part of a vehicle can fail, that's what happens time to time. Just make sure we're checking on things to make sure they don't fail

 

[DEERUNNER]

From Spidertrax:

1. Wheel Spacer Removal
Even though red thread locker is considered permanent, grade 8 studs of 1/2” diameter and larger can be broke loose without damage to the nut or the stud. To reinstall make sure you clean the threads well, reapply thread locker, and torque the lug nuts to the correct torque listed for your application.

 

[1engineer]

if yours says it acts as a lubricant, fine - i don't give a shit, reduce your torque input by 20%. mine says that it does not act as a lubricant and to torque to dry torque value, i'll go by that.

my wheels are plenty secure, and I'm not really sure why you're so hell bent on comparing them to the spacers. if i didn't frequently remove and replace my wheels and wanted to set it and forget it, id probably use locktite there too, like i do with my spacers.

god you are as dense as a brick of lead

So the manufacturer recommendation from loctite is gospel, but recommendations from spidertrax are BS and not required?

My point is that if your wheels are safe without loctite so are the spacers. Is that a complex concept? It doesn't matter if your putting them on for a day or a decade. That's a nonsensical justification.

**** if i know.

From Spidertrax:

1. Wheel Spacer Removal
Even though red thread locker is considered permanent, grade 8 studs of 1/2” diameter and larger can be broke loose without damage to the nut or the stud. To reinstall make sure you clean the threads well, reapply thread locker, and torque the lug nuts to the correct torque listed for your application.

Let me clarify a bit if I may:
First, wheel spacers are just fine if they are a quality part (Spidertrax) AND they are installed properly and maintained!
Second, why would you use loctite on the spacer stud and not the wheel stud? Deformity, that's why. Let me explain. Your OEM wheel studs are made of a material and they are designed to have a dry torque of around 83 lb ft. If you tighten it much further you will break the stud as many of you have found. I did a write up on that a few years ago here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...retched-lug-stud-issue-solved.html#post937665 if you want to go into the formulas. Suffice to say that on the wheel studs at 83 lb ft the thread will deform a bit and that deformity, along with friction will be enough to keep everything tight. The spacers don't use the same stud material though. They use grade 8 material right? The torque value required to deform those threads a bit is probably higher so to solve that a drop of loctite is required.

It's really no big deal. Follow the directions of the spacer for the spacer bolts and follow the directions for the wheel stud torque. In the end you are accomplishing the same thing with two different methods.

 

[marshal]

on the spidertrax spacers they're using OEM type studs, which are the ones used for mounting the wheels. the vehicle studs are the ones that are holding the spacer on.

and is the thread locker still providing lubricant even if it directly specifies that you are to torque to dry torque values?

 

[Jetboy]

Let me clarify a bit if I may:
First, wheel spacers are just fine if they are a quality part (Spidertrax) AND they are installed properly and maintained!
Second, why would you use loctite on the spacer stud and not the wheel stud? Deformity, that's why. Let me explain. Your OEM wheel studs are made of a material and they are designed to have a dry torque of around 83 lb ft. If you tighten it much further you will break the stud as many of you have found. I did a write up on that a few years ago here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...retched-lug-stud-issue-solved.html#post937665 if you want to go into the formulas. Suffice to say that on the wheel studs at 83 lb ft the thread will deform a bit and that deformity, along with friction will be enough to keep everything tight. The spacers don't use the same stud material though. They use grade 8 material right? The torque value required to deform those threads a bit is probably higher so to solve that a drop of loctite is required.

It's really no big deal. Follow the directions of the spacer for the spacer bolts and follow the directions for the wheel stud torque. In the end you are accomplishing the same thing with two different methods.

OK. Help me out here. You're saying that the factory studs are experiencing elastic (or inelastic?) deformation under even the factory torque value right? And the conclusion is that because they are more elastic you need loctite to keep the lug nuts from coming loose holding the spacer on but you don't need it to hold a wheel on to the same studs? And then spidertrax tells you to lubricate first, then torque to a nominal value 25% higher than factory spec on an already relatively malleable stud and we don't expect that to creep over time?

Wouldn't you expect that the softer more elastic factory studs are going to creep under a load that is a relatively high percentage of the failure strength? If you put loctite on them and the studs do creep, you can't tell and you can't adjust over time to compensate.

To me that seems almost precisely the wrong thing to do. It seems to me like a knee jerk reaction by someone who thought "oh, the nuts keep coming loose on these things, lets loctite them on! that'll solve it!!" I suspect that when they fail it has nothing to do with the nuts backing themselves off, and everything to do with stud creep and compression of small imperfections in the aluminum part.

Help me understand the logic here. What am I missing? Wouldn't you want to torque them to the factory spec, and re-torque to adjust for creep periodically?

 

[marshal]

still trying to understand why you think that 7075-t6 aluminum will compress a amount significant to be noticed outside of an electron microscope.

they use that shit for armor plating for gods sake.

 

[newbian]

Spacer threads are always a good read.

 

[mattcampos]

This pic just feels appropriate for this thread and some of the responses.

:spy:

 

[Jetboy]

still trying to understand why you think that 7075-t6 aluminum will compress a amount significant to be noticed outside of an electron microscope.

they use that shit for armor plating for gods sake.

Every material compresses some under load. Aluminum - even 7075-T6 is subject to time dependent deformation under significantly lower pressure than would cause immediate deformation. There are surely small imperfections in both mounting surfaces and the interface between the nut and spacer. Those imperfections are likely to be compressed during the first period of time that the spacers are put into use. The high load areas are likely to deform over time.


In addition the studs creep - this is well documented - and the bolt tension relaxes. It's been studies and measured quite a few times. Often within 100 miles there is measurable relaxation in the studs at regular torque values.

 

[marshal]

Every material compresses some under load. Aluminum - even 7075-T6 is subject to time dependent deformation under significantly lower pressure than would cause immediate deformation. There are surely small imperfections in both mounting surfaces and the interface between the nut and spacer. Those imperfections are likely to be compressed during the first period of time that the spacers are put into use. The high load areas are likely to deform over time.


In addition the studs creep - this is well documented - and the bolt tension relaxes. It's been studies and measured quite a few times. Often within 100 miles there is measurable relaxation in the studs at regular torque values.

im not a chemist nor am i a metallurgical scientist - but i don't see it being possible for a forged billet of 7075-t6 deforming or compressing to anything capable of contributing to theoretical failure under the amount of load present.

by your definition of everything that will go wrong, i should have experienced catastrophic failure sometime in the last 450,000 miles of driving on my personal vehicles with wheel spacers.

not to mention, what about the trillions of miles logged by dually pickups with their 6" hub spacer in the front that is applied with thread locker and never checked again.

hypothetically, of course.

 

[Jetboy]

I'm having a hard time spotting the aluminum on there. Can you draw an arrow to it?

 

[marshal]

I'm having a hard time spotting the aluminum on there. Can you draw an arrow to it?

oh I'm sorry, i could have sworn that 7075-T6 aluminum was stronger in all aspects except fatigue than cast 4130 steel. my bad, let me go hit the books again.

 

[Jetboy]

oh I'm sorry, i could have sworn that 7075-T6 aluminum was stronger in all aspects except fatigue than cast 4130 steel. my bad, let me go hit the books again.

I would start by reading on time dependent deformation. 7075 isn't even close.

 

[marshal]

I quit. you're useless.

 

[Bevo]

So are the spacers gonna kill the OP or not?

 

[DAGNABIT]

So are the spacers gonna kill the OP or not?

ONLY if he runs them with a stubby antenna and a TRD CAI. Deadly combination!

 

[Lmteel]

Well I guess I'm gonna die...I've already got the stubby antenna...working on a CAI. Might as well get those spidertrax