Sean K.
New member
So basically, the old H3 Alpha with the Adventure package was more capable (in terms of numbers) than this new ZR2.
Finally, a real competitor in 2017
- Thread starter wfo9
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So basically, the old H3 Alpha with the Adventure package was more capable (in terms of numbers) than this new ZR2.
BlackWorksInc
New member
What do you mean by capable? As a niche crawler or a general purpose/overland off-roader?
Too many people mistake "Crawling" as what off-roading is all about.
Sean K.
New member
"Capable" as in throwing a really nasty obstacle(or trail/road/path) in front of a vehicle and the vehicle successfully completing it without breaking....***EDIT*** or massive body damage.
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wfo9
New member
Well. the numbers are an estimate based on the data i could find... But yes the crawl ratio would have been better on the h3. But that is just one single aspect of capability.
A 4:1 transfer case would be nice, but I doubt they will go there based on the more general off-road use target.
This clearly won't be the best rock crawler. It's got wheelbase and body going against it... but it should do much better in that scenario than a 4runner or a Tacoma. The front locker alone will make a big difference in capability out of the box.
Its much more of a general purpose off-road machine that can do a little of everything. I would think that is what most buyers in the segment are looking for.
Like you said before. If rock crawling is your measuring stick.... the Rubicon is the obvious choice, but that is a different market IMHO.
Sean K.
New member
Agreed....though I think it a mistake to characterize all trail running as "rockcrawling". ***EDIT*** Not saying anyone here was....but saying that the H3 Alpha w/ Adventure package was a "niche crawler" is laughable.****
My point was more along the lines of: If the new ZR2 is so good that one is looking into buying one....why didn't they buy the H3 Alpha?
Overlanding is generally reserved for SUVs rather than pickups for the additional covered storage....though there's nothing against a pickup to my mind....much less one with a camper shell (aside from looks, which are totally subjective).
I'd also argue the lower crawl ratio is a huge benefit. As the trail becomes more technical....and it doesn't have to be rockcrawling at all...just squeezing between very tight trees on an offcamber will benefit from the excellent control the lower geared tcase will provide...and the body will greatly benefit as well as the potentially lessened shock loading to the drivetrain.
However, I do think that a 3 speed tcase would be far preferable....one with a normal high range, a "factory low range" of 2.something:1 and a super low 4:1 or better....but that's just dreaming from manufacturers at this point....if you want that, you want aftermarket from Marlin, Advance, Trail Worthy Fab, etc. That said though....you can always upshift the trans if GM did put a 4:1 in the new ZR21. Ratios usually overlap, meaning 3rd gear Low is the same as 1st gear High in a normal 2-2.7:1 tcase reduction....with 8 forward gears in GM's auto trans for this ZR2....there shouldn't be any issue with gear selection....UNLESS GM did not make each gear selectable (which wouldn't surprise me as vehicles are "advancing"....in such a way as to disallow the driver to make decisions). We can argue as to whether or not it's advancing or regression.
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BlackWorksInc
New member
[MENTION=144462]Sean K.[/MENTION]
I genuinely have not had a situation in my 4th gen where I felt that I needed a much lower gearing in the T-Case ( [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] you wouldn't happen to know what the ratio is for an '04 V8 4WD would you?
). Most everything I've had plenty of control/grip/ease of effort with 4Lo, 1st gear (though to be honest I rarely ever need 4Lo most of the time); even before I threw the 35's on.
There's been one or two really big rocks/objects I "crawled" on that I really relied on 4Lo/1st gear with but not much since then.
I'm not trying to put you down, I'm just wondering how low of a case do you really need if you're not strictly crawling? I would imagine anything from the 4Runner's gear ratio down should be okay?
I genuinely have not had a situation in my 4th gen where I felt that I needed a much lower gearing in the T-Case ( [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] you wouldn't happen to know what the ratio is for an '04 V8 4WD would you?
). Most everything I've had plenty of control/grip/ease of effort with 4Lo, 1st gear (though to be honest I rarely ever need 4Lo most of the time); even before I threw the 35's on.There's been one or two really big rocks/objects I "crawled" on that I really relied on 4Lo/1st gear with but not much since then.
I'm not trying to put you down, I'm just wondering how low of a case do you really need if you're not strictly crawling? I would imagine anything from the 4Runner's gear ratio down should be okay?
Sean K.
New member
[MENTION=144462]Sean K.[/MENTION]
I genuinely have not had a situation in my 4th gen where I felt that I needed a much lower gearing in the T-Case ( [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] you wouldn't happen to know what the ratio is for an '04 V8 4WD would you?
There's been one or two really big rocks/objects I "crawled" on that I really relied on 4Lo/1st gear with but not much since then.
I'm not trying to put you down, I'm just wondering how low of a case do you really need if you're not strictly crawling? I would imagine anything from the 4Runner's gear ratio down should be okay?
Oh trust me, I don't think you're putting me down....and hopefully you won't take this the wrong way either.....
If you don't feel like you "need" 4Lo most of the time....then you're not wheeling anything that could be considered difficult.
But hey....if you like the kind of wheeling you do....that is ALL that matters. It only becomes an issue when you start comparing vehicles....then it helps to have an apples to apples comparison.
Truth is, most any 4wd can do overlanding type trails...and there frankly aren't that many different kinds of offroading. Snow wheeling, mudding, rock crawling, expedition/overlanding, general trail riding, and wheeling in a recreational vehicle park are all viable forms of the sport...and each has its own set of parameters that make certain modifications more helpful.
BlackWorksInc
New member
I would say that's probably true on the difficulty of the trails, most are not very technical. I do try and take more difficult lines when I can and beat her up a bit. But I am also really good about managing the throttle and the brakes when I need to; so it may be more than I just don't bother throwing it into 4Lo when I feel I can just manage the throttle to "crawl".
No worries on hurting my feelings.
wfo9
New member
[MENTION=144462]Sean K.[/MENTION]
I genuinely have not had a situation in my 4th gen where I felt that I needed a much lower gearing in the T-Case ( [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] you wouldn't happen to know what the ratio is for an '04 V8 4WD would you?
There's been one or two really big rocks/objects I "crawled" on that I really relied on 4Lo/1st gear with but not much since then.
I'm not trying to put you down, I'm just wondering how low of a case do you really need if you're not strictly crawling? I would imagine anything from the 4Runner's gear ratio down should be okay?
I'm 90% sure the 4th gen v8 would be the same as a 5th gen 4runner ~34:1.
It's not as big of a deal in an auto with a good powerful motor.. Lower is still better, but you can live with it for basic stuff. In a manual you must have a lower crawl to do anything significant. Also, if you have a small motor and big tires, you really need a decent crawl ratio.
I have dual cases in my trail rig with 37s and a little 22re. I use double low often in the rocks (its about 105:1). I can't imagine not having that gearing. It gives you so much control in delicate situations. Also works amazing going down crazy stuff, so much more controlled than using the brakes.... It's pretty much mandatory in a hard core rock crawling rig.
My 5th gen has 4:56 front and rear diffs. That also impacts the crawl and makes a decent difference. I wish I could get better, but it is adequate for moderate rock crawling...nothing crazy though. To calculate it... just multiply 1st gear ratio X TCase ratio X diff Ratio
I've seen people try to wheel in 4hi where they should be in 4lo. It's really hard on the trans... the converter heats up and overall control sucks. You can still get up stuff but it takes momentum and lots of bashing around. I find myself in 4Lo 90% of the time. I find that if 4Lo is not required I'm usually good in 2wd.
One cool thing about the zr2 is that they allow the rear locker to work in 2wd. That makes for lots of fun.... Pretty rare for a factory truck to have that enabled.
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Vinsil
New member
Yup. I had the lower gears in my rear case and ended up with a 228.1 crawl ratio. Now, I never used it for anything but the most extreme rock piles, but with the little angry 22RE it couldn't be stalled. LOTS of control, and that is where it counts. BUT! Having a super low for everything is not ideal for all terrains at all. That is where I found the dual cases a great setup, with a manual you had tons of options. Wheel speed for the snow and mud (hate mud) low for trails, super low for technical stuff and what I called stupid low for rocks.
I too like the high range rear locker setup they are doing, great idea and super useful. I'll be modding my current Runner to use the locker when I want and need, shouldn't be that way!
A three speed tcase would rock but we will never get it. I'm happy to see the factory trying to cater to "our" wants like they are with the muscle car crowd. IMHO! The 4x4 crowd is notoriously cheap...which is why our needs have not been really addressed.
wfo9
New member
Just ran across this.
Someone mentioned lack of aftermarket support...
Well, Does not seem to be stopping this guy from making a std Colorado duarmax pretty wild.... The lines of this truck just look really good to me, so much potential.
I know... it looks mostly like a show truck/pre-runner. The point is the off-road monsters will come behind the zr2.
https://www.facebook.com/103667523011521/videos/1340181492693445/
Someone mentioned lack of aftermarket support...
Well, Does not seem to be stopping this guy from making a std Colorado duarmax pretty wild.... The lines of this truck just look really good to me, so much potential.
I know... it looks mostly like a show truck/pre-runner. The point is the off-road monsters will come behind the zr2.
https://www.facebook.com/103667523011521/videos/1340181492693445/
ToyoDriver
New member
JSparky
New member
Exactly.
How on earth does a truck compete with an SUV?
I don't haul wood and dirt and shit. I need an enclosed cabin I can fit humans in.
What a foolish comparison...almost as foolish as comparing a GM Product to a Toyota
Ya, I'll admit though this is the first place I heard about the new chevy. Toyota's gonna have to consider upping their game on the TRD Pro. With Chevy offering duratracs and Ford and Jeep offering BFG AT/MT's as standard equipment on their top tier offroad packages, Toyota really needs to reconsider their tire choice. I owned a '16 Tacoma off-road with the same tires as the 17 TRDPro has for a few months and swapped them for some ko2's before running the Maze district out in Utah. I was shocked at how thin the sidewalls were.. even if they did have Kevlar they're nowhere near a ko2 or km2. Factory sliders and a more powerful motor makes it clear Chevy did their homework here. Still not a Toyota, but makes the argument more challenging for sure.
Side note, I couldn't find a thread on this over at Tacoma world.. found that odd.
Dre's runner
New member
I was stoked when GM put the diesel in the Colorado. I'll never buy one but if a bunch of other people buy one maybe the light bulb will go off for Toyota and they will finally give us what we want and that's an efficient torquey diesel. Toyota is never the first to do anything. Nissan I think was the first compact 4 door truck. The original Tacoma TRD was prob a response to the S-10 ZR2 which came factory with 32" all terrains not the dumb rugged terrains which weren't real rugged. Nissan went mid sized in 04 Toyota responded in 05. Now that Nissan has a 2/3 ton diesel truck I expect the tundra will respond soon. I just hope we don't have to wait 10 years for another Tacoma. This one was a little disappointing. Toyota has gotten way too conservative and haven't really had an exciting new release since maybe the FJ. That was the last time I think Toyota really put themselves out there. They will still get my business because at the end of the day I need reliable transportation.
Also I suspect they limited the tire size to 31 on the Colorado because the axles aren't strong enough to handle anything bigger especially with the lockers.
Also I suspect they limited the tire size to 31 on the Colorado because the axles aren't strong enough to handle anything bigger especially with the lockers.
JSparky
New member
GM's previous offerings suffered from weak front-ends. I haven't had a chance to look at the front end of the new Colorado, but I'm really curious to see how they handle warranty issues with that front locker. Toyota's offering with atrac plus crawl control makes a lot more sense to me regarding both capability and long-term reliability.
JSparky
New member
I'll follow up on my last post by saying if Toyota offered a super/turbo option on the TRDPro models they'd probably do a lot better. I understand that upcoming emissions standards have a lot to do with it but their engine offerings have traditionally lagged behind. They're reliable, but in this day and age can't compete on paper. We all place value in different areas, but it'd be nice to see more output in the Toyota power plants.
kcdehart
New member
Is anyone else hoping for a 4cyl Cummins 4 Runner now? 
I'll add that it's cool to see an American manufacturer having a diesel option in a small truck. Maybe they're finally getting the hint that people would actually like that. I've always wished we'd gotten more small diesels in the US (Hiluxes, Rangers, Pajeros, things like that)
I'll add that it's cool to see an American manufacturer having a diesel option in a small truck. Maybe they're finally getting the hint that people would actually like that. I've always wished we'd gotten more small diesels in the US (Hiluxes, Rangers, Pajeros, things like that)
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4Rager
New member
When I first saw this vehicle, like others have said I was excited to see a major manufacturer focus on the enthusiast 4x4 market, but there are a few issues that stick out at me.
1. Although it affects some people and not others, there's the GM quality issue. Combine that with an IFS front locker, and things could get interesting.
2. Want larger tires? That will only compound issue 1.
3. Since this vehicle has features an actual enthusiast want, they will likely purchase it with further upgrades in mind. That probably means the suspension is going on Craigslist. And unlike the TRDP, I doubt the fancy SSV or whatever is will work with on a non-ZR2, meaning it's completely worthless unless another ZR2 needs a stock replacement.
All of these issues illustrate exactly why so many of us opted for something other than a TRD Pro. Yea the Duratracs are a nice touch, but at 31" I'm gonna replace them anyway. Yea the suspension is impressive, but I'm gonna replace it anyway. Diesel can be had in a non-ZR2. The only thing it has that would be somewhat difficult to replicate is the wider track and the convenience of factory installed lockers. All of which boils down to, why wouldn't I just buy the Canyon All-Terrain diesel, and mod it how I want with the money I saved?
1. Although it affects some people and not others, there's the GM quality issue. Combine that with an IFS front locker, and things could get interesting.
2. Want larger tires? That will only compound issue 1.
3. Since this vehicle has features an actual enthusiast want, they will likely purchase it with further upgrades in mind. That probably means the suspension is going on Craigslist. And unlike the TRDP, I doubt the fancy SSV or whatever is will work with on a non-ZR2, meaning it's completely worthless unless another ZR2 needs a stock replacement.
All of these issues illustrate exactly why so many of us opted for something other than a TRD Pro. Yea the Duratracs are a nice touch, but at 31" I'm gonna replace them anyway. Yea the suspension is impressive, but I'm gonna replace it anyway. Diesel can be had in a non-ZR2. The only thing it has that would be somewhat difficult to replicate is the wider track and the convenience of factory installed lockers. All of which boils down to, why wouldn't I just buy the Canyon All-Terrain diesel, and mod it how I want with the money I saved?
JSparky
New member
I agree, common sense to the practical minded individual. That said I know a lot of guys pick up the trd pro Tacoma specifically due to exclusivity and resale value. It's a top tier factory package and there'll always be a market for that.
4Rager
New member
I agree. My buddy just picked up at TRDP Taco after lots of searching and initially looking at the TRD Off-Road when the 2016's came out last year. But there's one major difference between the TRDP 4R and the TRDP Taco. With the Taco, the only version to come with leather(softex) is the Limited, so anyone one that wants the off-road features like e-locker, MTS, etc. are SOL. However like the 4R, the TRDP Taco has TRD embroidered leather seats.
It's hard to say this without coming off like a pretentious dick, but being that Tacos and 4Rs are quite similar, the fact that leather wasn't even an option on the Tacos we were interested in made me look at it as an inferior and less luxurious vehicle than my 5th gen.(I realize that leather isn't an "upgrade" to some people and I get that, but it just seems a bit ridiculous when you look at the cost of these trucks and what the competition offers that they wouldn't have a "premium" trim like 4R's) However, his TRDP is just the opposite. It had some nice improvements over the 4Runner that I wished I had in mine. Digital aircon controls, the head unit has a glossy finish with better integration in the dash, and most of all the HUD is a high-res full color multifunction display instead of the one we have that looks like it's advance tech from the debut of the LC80. So I guess all of this just reinforces the point you were making about why the TRDP models will always be desireable.
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