robotkiller
New member
I'm in Chapel Hill, NC
Need some expert help - installed Bilsteins (pics) but have issues
- Thread starter robotkiller
- Start date
I'm in Chapel Hill, NC
proquip
New member
I'll offer my 2 cents having just installed coilovers on my KDSS-equipped TE. I think the KDSS is more robust than the discussion here suggests, provided you apply upward force on the front piston while the rear piston is able to extend.
To prepare for the installation of my coilovers, I disconnected the anti-sway bar at the connection points on the LCA's. Because I only had the front of the 4Runner on jackstands at the time (the rear tires were still on the ground), the hydraulic pressure in the KDSS lines pushed the KDSS piston in the front all the way down (fully extended).
Once I installed the coilovers, I connected the anti-sway bar to the LCA on the driver's side. This was a fairly simple process and only required help from the floor jack to align the thru-holes on the anti-sway bar bracket back to the LCA. The connection of the bar on the passanger's side was a bit tricky, as the fully extended piston the driver's side pushed the anti-sway bar way up on the passanger's side. I used a floor jack in the rear of the vehicle to get the left rear tire to drop (lifted along frame rail, not axle). As the rear KDSS piston extended, it pulled up the piston in the front. After playing around a bit with how much to raise the left rear, I was able to dial in the extension of the front KDSS piston to get the bar close to its connection point on the right LCA. I used a floor jack to line up the thru-holes of the anti-sway bar bracket to the LCA.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that if the shop installing the lift applied pressure on the front KDSS piston to reinstall the anti-sway bar that they somehow damaged the KDSS system. I'd be more concerned with them opening or closing the bypass valves in the accumulators and allowing the system to be out of balanced now. If the Toyota dealer you're working with doesn't have the direct experience needed to verify the KDSS system, maybe they have a Lexus dealer in their network that would be willing to look at your 4Runner. Personally, I would have someone experienced with KDSS verify the system and rule it out as a problem. Your description of symptoms suggests to me that something is binding with the suspension and/or steering. After verifying the KDSS system, I would suggest taking the struts out to make sure they were properly installed. You'd be surprised what you might find (I've learned this the hard way).
Good luck!!
To prepare for the installation of my coilovers, I disconnected the anti-sway bar at the connection points on the LCA's. Because I only had the front of the 4Runner on jackstands at the time (the rear tires were still on the ground), the hydraulic pressure in the KDSS lines pushed the KDSS piston in the front all the way down (fully extended).
Once I installed the coilovers, I connected the anti-sway bar to the LCA on the driver's side. This was a fairly simple process and only required help from the floor jack to align the thru-holes on the anti-sway bar bracket back to the LCA. The connection of the bar on the passanger's side was a bit tricky, as the fully extended piston the driver's side pushed the anti-sway bar way up on the passanger's side. I used a floor jack in the rear of the vehicle to get the left rear tire to drop (lifted along frame rail, not axle). As the rear KDSS piston extended, it pulled up the piston in the front. After playing around a bit with how much to raise the left rear, I was able to dial in the extension of the front KDSS piston to get the bar close to its connection point on the right LCA. I used a floor jack to line up the thru-holes of the anti-sway bar bracket to the LCA.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that if the shop installing the lift applied pressure on the front KDSS piston to reinstall the anti-sway bar that they somehow damaged the KDSS system. I'd be more concerned with them opening or closing the bypass valves in the accumulators and allowing the system to be out of balanced now. If the Toyota dealer you're working with doesn't have the direct experience needed to verify the KDSS system, maybe they have a Lexus dealer in their network that would be willing to look at your 4Runner. Personally, I would have someone experienced with KDSS verify the system and rule it out as a problem. Your description of symptoms suggests to me that something is binding with the suspension and/or steering. After verifying the KDSS system, I would suggest taking the struts out to make sure they were properly installed. You'd be surprised what you might find (I've learned this the hard way).
Good luck!!
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robotkiller
New member
Thanks for your input. I really hope the KDSS isn't screwed. I'm taking the car to Toyota tomorrow morning and will talk to them about the KDSS and whether we need Lexus to look at it. At this point, I just don't feel safe driving the car with our 2 month old, so I'm leaving it at the dealer until this is resolved. At this point, I would say this situation is worse than the worst case scenario I envisioned with the install. I'm considering just going back to stock to get it over with.
If anyone else has input/experience with installing on a KDSS 4Runner, please chime in - it's much appreciated.
I don't know what is going on but I feel your pain and hope you figure it out and get things fixed. There is nothing worse than doing and "upgrade" and coming out worse that when you started. I monitor this thread because I am looking forward to you figuring out what is wrong.
My other comment is that I've had multiple shops work on a couple of my 4WD trucks, and never have they pushed in the shock boots covers like I see on yours. Even if after an install everything worked but I saw my boot cover crumpled like that I would be pissed. That is a sign of shoddy work in the first place, in my opinion.
My other comment is that I've had multiple shops work on a couple of my 4WD trucks, and never have they pushed in the shock boots covers like I see on yours. Even if after an install everything worked but I saw my boot cover crumpled like that I would be pissed. That is a sign of shoddy work in the first place, in my opinion.
Jesse1983
5th Gen Moderator
it's so weird because when I did my install the kdss wasn't a factor at all. I never even disconnected the sway bar. Had a buddy push the lca down and I was able to knock the bottom mount in. Maybe mine was much easier because I had the uca off which gave me more room, who knows. That shop definitely jacked up the kdss system here. I would probably try and take it somewhere and try and get the kdss system to engage? Maybe then it would correct itself. Just a shot on the dark.
robotkiller
New member
One question I have for everyone who installed Bilsteins - did you guys use different bushings or mounting hardware from stock? From what I've seen in search, the answer is no, but I wanted to confirm that.
Thanks
Thanks
nope the bilsteins are a straight swap.. going back to stock is not going to solve your problem..
when you do get it resolved you might as well have gotten something out of it.. good luck
robotkiller
New member
Well Toyota just called - apparently the R front wheel LCA bolts were loose. One of them was completely gone. Which likely explains the negative camber appearance of the wheel on reversing, inability to align and flightiness/looseness of handling. They said the bolts were probably installed loose by the installer, which had managed to work themselves completely off.
Unbelievable. Waiting to hear what comes next here.
Unbelievable. Waiting to hear what comes next here.
Narkhelek
New member
:jaw drop:
Multiple times I've had my LCA alignment cam bolts loose after having my alignment done. Now I go and torque them myself after having an alignment done to be sure.
homeyclaus
New member
Wow. Just wow.
Even at some of the schlock shops I worked at you'd have been fired with a megaphone if you did that.
robotkiller
New member
Driving to the dealership this morning, I was thinking to myself how loose and scary feeling the car felt. Makes complete sense now. They are waiting on the bolt to come in and we'll see if the thing aligns properly. Then maybe the TRAC system can be zeroed. Either way, I need to get the KDSS checked out, but I'm hoping all these troubles are from nothing more complicated than this.
Narkhelek
New member
No kidding. The most resent time it was my dealership that screwed it up. Took it back the next day and had them redo the alignment since the cams had moved due to the bolts not being torqued down. When I got it back the second time I re-torqued the cam bolts myself and they were still not torqued to the 129ftlb like it says they should be in the service manual.
harper7
Senior Member
Glad to hear they got it figured out and turned out to be not a big deal.
So, the first alignment guy forgot to tighten the cam bolts on the LCA was the whole problem.
The questions I have is why the dealer or shop that rechecked the alignment didn't catch it.You said the dealer aligned it to spec. and that
You would have constantly changing caster and camber(like you did) long before that long ass bolt could work it's way forward and out as the weight of the truck is on it. Heck they are hard to get out when your trying to take them out and a punch and hammer have to be used.
Ask them what exact bolt is missing.
Here's some pics of the LCA's to show what were talking about.
And they are saying cam bolt #31 is missing on the pass. side because I can see the front one in your pic?
What I think probably happened is the first alignment guy forgot to tighten the LCA cam bolts and the dealer missed it. What threw us off is you saying the dealer checked the alignment which obviously they didn't as the manual clearly states a torque of 129 ft/lbs on those bolts after loosening them up for an alignment.You would think that would be the first thing they checked! How much is the dealer charging for their incompetence? Should be no more then a alignment cost and then you get your money back from the first incompetent alignment guy. Your KDSS isn't and wasn't the problem and should be fine.
So, the first alignment guy forgot to tighten the cam bolts on the LCA was the whole problem.
The questions I have is why the dealer or shop that rechecked the alignment didn't catch it.You said the dealer aligned it to spec. and that
And then they say one is gone!! That BS for a LCA cam bolt to fall out as they are about 6 inches long and there is no reason to take them completely out to do an alignment as you just back off the nut a turn or 2 to loosen it not take it off.
You would have constantly changing caster and camber(like you did) long before that long ass bolt could work it's way forward and out as the weight of the truck is on it. Heck they are hard to get out when your trying to take them out and a punch and hammer have to be used.
Ask them what exact bolt is missing.
Here's some pics of the LCA's to show what were talking about.
And they are saying cam bolt #31 is missing on the pass. side because I can see the front one in your pic?
What I think probably happened is the first alignment guy forgot to tighten the LCA cam bolts and the dealer missed it. What threw us off is you saying the dealer checked the alignment which obviously they didn't as the manual clearly states a torque of 129 ft/lbs on those bolts after loosening them up for an alignment.You would think that would be the first thing they checked! How much is the dealer charging for their incompetence? Should be no more then a alignment cost and then you get your money back from the first incompetent alignment guy. Your KDSS isn't and wasn't the problem and should be fine.
robotkiller
New member
Glad you posted this pic - I've been looking for a diagram from the 4Runner. To answer your question - I have no idea how two separate alignments techs could have forgotten to torque down these bolts. I'm hoping that once this thing is aligned and tightened down, everything will be right. Still don't understand the TRAC light situation, unless the alignment just drifted so out of spec that it triggered it - which is something that Toyota denied could happen. I'm assuming that the car won't let you zero out the pitch/yaw with a wildly misaligned vehicle, which is why they were locked out from recalibrating the TRAC system. If it ends up being that stupid, then I'll be relieved. I guess it makes sense that the car drove ok before the alignment that caused all hell to break loose. It would also make sense that the car was initially aligned to spec the second time around, but then the steering wheel drifted off-center when it was actually driven.
I haven't paid for any of these "alignments". I'll find out which bolts are gone/missing and I'm going to hold off on pointing fingers until all the data is in. Thinking more about it, I'm not sure I want anyone even checking the KDSS - last thing I want to do is screw up what may actually be a functioning component.
Crossing my fingers that this works - should be done by Wednesday
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Antman
Elite Member
I agree with Harper7- I don't see how those cam bolts could fall out. Maybe for some reason during their install, the original shop loosened these bolts that connect the LCA lower ball joint attachment to the upright knuckle (one is out the other is being removed in the pic). they normally wouldn't loosen these, but they did have difficulties with the KDSS, so who knows? These bolts need to be installed with locktite to prevent loosening, and aren't normally checked during an alignment, which could explain how every alignment tech missed it. The original shop should have rechecked EVERY suspension bolt as soon as they were done IMO... I can see one of these bolts falling out easily. Whaddayou guys think?
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robotkiller
New member
I agree with Harper7- I don't see how those cam bolts could fall out. Maybe for some reason during their install, the original shop loosened these bolts that connect the LCA lower ball joint attachment to the upright knuckle (one is out the other is being removed in the pic). they normally wouldn't loosen these, but they did have difficulties with the KDSS, so who knows? These bolts need to be installed with locktite to prevent loosening, and aren't normally checked during an alignment, which could explain how every alignment tech missed it. The original shop should have rechecked EVERY suspension bolt as soon as they were done IMO... I can see one of these bolts falling out easily. Whaddayou guys think?
I think you might have it there. I talked only briefly to the dealer b/c I was busy at work all day, but I'm fairly certain he mentioned that it was the LCA attachment to the knuckle, which would be bolt 160 in harper7's diagram. Thoughts on what a loose bolt here would do?
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Antman
Elite Member
OK- I went back and looked at your pics and this doesn't look right to me on the pass side. I think that lower bolt is out in this pic. If only the shot were an inch lower! Compare it to the drivers side... I think that's it. If it is indeed the case, you may have a damaged CV joint now (or worse), make sure you engage 4wd to check it out. BTW- the 160 in the diagram is the bolts torque spec, not an ID. I hope this didn't cause any more damage to your drivetrain, if the other bolt had fallen out it would have been a catastrophic failure; Very dangerous. I would be PISSED! Good luck with getting reimbursed for this ( that's what i would demand)!!
Attachments
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robotkiller
New member
OK- I went back and looked at your pics and this doesn't look right to me on the pass side. I think that lower bolt is out in this pic. If only the shot were an inch lower! Compare it to the drivers side... I think that's it. If it is indeed the case, you may have a damaged CV joint now (or worse), make sure you engage 4wd to check it out. BTW- the 160 in the diagram is the bolts torque spec, not an ID. I hope this didn't cause any more damage to your drivetrain, if the other bolt had fallen out it would have been a catastrophic failure; Very dangerous. I would be PISSED! Good luck with getting reimbursed for this ( that's what i would demand)!!
View attachment 48707
Looked through my pics and found this one of the passenger side. It appears to me that the same bolt seen on the driver's side pic is missing.
Resulting in the R front wheel looking like this on full lock
And you are correct - this would have been a catastrophic failure. The dealer mentioned this. The CV boot looks a bit crumpled on that side - hope this is nothing more involved, but all bets are off now.
