No KDSS for FJ Cruiser ?

[crunchcity]

What i see here is classic on Jeep forums. You have the camp where anything OEM sucks. Jeeps are built not bought mentality! This camp always look down on the Rubicon owners as being fakes. Look guys, especially SR5 owners, there is NO REASON to hate on the TE/KDSS. It is a wonderful technology that works! The naysayers are showing their jealousy.

Fine, if you bought your 4runner to mod the crap out of it in hope of becoming a primarily weekend off-roader, then great...you don't need KDSS...but, to be honest, you should have bought a Jeep Wrangler as the starting platform!! We all bought 4runners because it is practical, reliable, and safe. Weekend only trucks are none of that...so, you kinda destroy the main purpose of buying a 4runner in the first place.

Now, if you bought the SR5 and now crapping on KDSS, then that is just dumb. Don't blame the KDSS...blame your wallet! Stock for stock, a TE will molest SR5 off-road (and on-road!)...well, given decent set of tires. As for Limited, TE will beat it too...fairly easily. But, i can forgive Limited owners a tiny bit because they do have Multi-mode 4wd, which is handy in bad weather. But, to sh!t on KDSS is just plain ridiculous, esp. when one claims to be the expert!

This thread smells of jealousy IMHO...as a Prius-station-wagon owning outsider.

Oh BTW, flame on! I am a big boy....

I personally think the Trail with KDSS is super cool, and I'm an SR5 owner. :thumb3:

Just glad to part of the 4R community although there seems to be some of cliqueishness within the trim lines.

Every forum I've ever been a member of has that element though (imo), from cars to guns to guitars and everything inbetween.

And I have to say I think it's very cool that even a modest investment can improve the base SR5 platform quite a bit, I see no reason why that should be restricted to the Jeep community.

What about people who mod the Trail edition, is that "wrong" too... :jump:

I learned alot from this thread regardless, this forum has educated me greatly on these trucks!

 

[KCcarguy]

You are exactly right. I think the issue is (for me included) is that some of the members that do not have KDSS are trying to brush it off as not really worth having and a 4Runner with a regular sway bar has the same articulation. The real benefit of this system is that it not only provides more articulation off-road, it also provides a huge difference in on-road stability and handling.

Koz

I think it's the opposite. There are some on here with KDSS that act like KDSS makes their truck into an entirely different vehicle. As if a TE with KDSS can do things a non-KDSS could never do. I just don't believe there is a real-world scenario where that would be true.

 

[mgrande]

Ok, removing sways altogether...hmmm, ok...hmmm....

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or what. Plenty of people remove their sway bars including me. I'm actually surprised more people on here don't considering icon is so popular on this forum. Their digressive valving and #650 springs are best suited for guys with out sway bars.

And for the record I have nothing against TE's, I think they're great and if you could get one with factory heated leather seats, hofs05 would have one.

 

[Thai]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or what. Plenty of people remove their sway bars including me. I'm actually surprised more people on here don't considering icon is so popular on this forum. Their digressive valving and #650 springs are best suited for guys with out sway bars.

And for the record I have nothing against TE's, I think they're great and if you could get one with factory heated leather seats, hofs05 would have one.

All my cars need to drive safely on the road first and foremost. I assume that this is the same for most folks here. A high center-of-gravity SUV with well-known soft suspension (5th gen SR5) is probably NOT a good vehicle to do your sway bar delete mod if it also serves its duties on-road!!

I wonder that if you get into an accident whether the insurance company can use that mod against you in a rollover etc..

IMHO, sway-bar delete mod on a road-going car is not very smart.

 

[steezemcqueen]

IMHO, sway-bar delete mod on a road-going car is not very smart.

...unless you know how to drive without one

 

[mgrande]

^ this. Don't knock it til you try it. With coilovers its not bad at all.

 

[rebelbowtie]

A lot of trucks and SUV's don't even come with rear sway bars from the factory. I really don't see the hoopla everyone on this forum gets into about removing sway bars.

 

[Thai]

^ this. Don't knock it til you try it. With coilovers its not bad at all.

That's ok...I have valuable packages (kids & wife) in my cars most of the time...irresponsible of me to do that IMHO.

 

[Thai]

A lot of trucks and SUV's don't even come with rear sway bars from the factory. I really don't see the hoopla everyone on this forum gets into about removing sway bars.

Yeah, but all have front sways. Correct me if I am wrong, but removing front sways get the most benefits for IFS??? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Thai]

...unless you know how to drive without one

So, did u remove all your sways on your ride?

 

[rebelbowtie]

Yeah, but all have front sways. Correct me if I am wrong, but removing front sways get the most benefits for IFS??? Correct me if I am wrong.

Depends on the vehicle and suspension geometry but in a nut shell yes. That is if you're into off road driving, like others have said in here many times the shocks and ball joints are the physical limiting factors in down travel(which is most important)

I have taken the sway bars and shocks off an old truck and flipped the ball joints and judging by eye it doubled the amount of total travel from full compression too full droop. It definitely wouldn't be good to drive like that but I was curious and it made a nice picture...

 

[Thai]

No jealousy here. My previous posts even say KDSS is good. The original assertion is/was KDSS increases articulation. My claim is no, bump stops ultimately control max articulation and they are located in the same place on all models of 5th gen 4Runners. I concur (and always have) that the less spring force you have, either by coils alone or adding torsion from sway bars to coils, the "easier" it will be for the suspension to articulate under certain conditions such as a static ramp. Add enough velocity to the equation in the real world and spring forces are quickly overcome by the simple F=MA equation and physical limits quickly come into play - and the limits, again, are the same for all models. KDSS is a great design and has several advantages on road and off. It cannot however change geometry. Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy the time with family!

Can you save this post for the next time the topic comes up? Best explanation for the layman I've seen yet I think.

Actually, maybe i misunderstood 1engineer, but his explanation does not make sense! If i understand him correctly, then you should NOT save his explanation!

This is my assumption of his explanation...so, please correct me if i got it wrong. According to him, when the 4runner hits a speed bump fast enough, the upward acceleration of a wheel going over that bump is so great that it overcomes the resistive force of the sway bay to keep that wheel from going up too far. In other words, this great upward acceleration caused by 4runner driving fast over a speed bump/obstacle x constant mass of the 4runner over that wheel = very high force = leading to that wheel hitting bumpstop because the force is greater than what the sway bar can control.

Is this correct? Why is this wrong? Well, are we in a Dakar race? What do MOST American off-roaders do when off-roading? How fast do we drive while off-roading? When does KDSS disengage the sway bars?

For me (and most folks i used to off-road with), off-roading is going real slow...usually under 10 mph, sometimes under 5 mph! This is called, CRAWLING. In LO range. Yeah, there are washboards sometimes, but i don't really call that off-roading. But, at those speeds over washboards, KDSS is not even doing its thing. So, it's a moot point.

And when you crawl, is there much upward acceleration of a tire?? No. Tire slowly going up a rock...and slowly going down the rock. Placement is key, right? Going fast over these things is just asking for trouble. So, in essence, crawling is like going up the RTI ramp.

And when does KDSS disengage the sways? Yup, at slow speeds only because doing so at higher speeds is very dangerous.

So, does 1engineer explanation makes much sense in this discussion or anything to do with off-roading this side of the pond? Not at all IMHO. No fast upward acceleration means 1engineer's explanation is utterly invalid and has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Disclaimer: like i said above...i am sure that i misunderstood him...so, correct me if i am wrong.

 

[mgrande]

Yeah, but all have front sways. Correct me if I am wrong, but removing front sways get the most benefits for IFS??? Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, removing the front sway bar makes your truck a true IFS. When there is a sway bar on, the axles aren't completely independent of each other. I used to be in the "no way, I like my sway bar" camp. Then I took it off and haven't looked back since.

 

[Thai]

A lot of trucks and SUV's don't even come with rear sway bars from the factory. I really don't see the hoopla everyone on this forum gets into about removing sway bars.

Yes, i know...my old G-wagen did not come with rear sway. But, it certainly had front sway bar.

The bottom line is that removing sways is not that smart IMHO in a daily driver or semi-daily driver, especially a high COG vehicle! I bet you that some who do it because after going around a corner, they are still alive...so, it must be OK! Sways do more than that. Sway helps a vehicle maintain balance, not just around a corner, but also in emergency handling! When you are cranking the wheel emergently to the right to avoid a deer and then cut the wheel to the left to compensate, this is when those sways come into play!! And please, don't tell me that you learn how to drive without them. These emergencies are all about reflex and over-compensating! Unless you're a professional driver or crash dummy, you ain't prepared for it!

Think of it another way...why do you think disco's on Jeeps, Land Rovers, etc. are so popular with the (sensible) off-roading crowd if sways are not important??? Those folks are smart and experienced!

Imagine this...your son/daughter is in a friend's modified 4runner (with no sways) and it flips over in an emergency maneuver. How would you feel? Or you're a bystander on the side of the road (fixing a flat, walking/jogging, etc.) and you get hit by a truck with no sways as it was trying to avoid a racoon on the road? If you're the driver in a high-profile accident, then do you think that your insurance will back you up?? Do you think that civil lawsuit will not come up from the victim or victim's family?? Hey, stranger things have happened!

My point is that no matter how good the advertisement is for a coil-over etc., the idea of taking out the sways in a daily driver is dumb. Don't get me wrong, if you do it to a weekend off-roader, then sure, go ahead...makes lots of sense!

Another point...if coil-overs are the solve all, then why don't OEMs do it and throw away the sways? It is probably cheaper for them in the end too!

Call me cautious...call me a Prius owner...fine, but i will personally kill the person who cause an accident or injure my family due to stupidly modifying their road car in a way to endanger the public!

 

[mgrande]

Actually, maybe i misunderstood 1engineer, but his explanation does not make sense! If i understand him correctly, then you should NOT save his explanation!

This is my assumption of his explanation...so, please correct me if i got it wrong. According to him, when the 4runner hits a speed bump fast enough, the upward acceleration of a wheel going over that bump is so great that it overcomes the resistive force of the sway bay to keep that wheel from going up too far. In other words, this great upward acceleration caused by 4runner driving fast over a speed bump/obstacle x constant mass of the 4runner over that wheel = very high force = leading to that wheel hitting bumpstop because the force is greater than what the sway bar can control.

Is this correct? Why is this wrong? Well, are we in a Dakar race? What do MOST American off-roaders do when off-roading? How fast do we drive while off-roading? When does KDSS disengage the sway bars?

For me (and most folks i used to off-road with), off-roading is going real slow...usually under 10 mph, sometimes under 5 mph! This is called, CRAWLING. In LO range. Yeah, there are washboards sometimes, but i don't really call that off-roading. But, at those speeds over washboards, KDSS is not even doing its thing. So, it's a moot point.

And when you crawl, is there much upward acceleration of a tire?? No. Tire slowly going up a rock...and slowly going down the rock. Placement is key, right? Going fast over these things is just asking for trouble. So, in essence, crawling is like going up the RTI ramp.

And when does KDSS disengage the sways? Yup, at slow speeds only because doing so at higher speeds is very dangerous.

So, does 1engineer explanation makes much sense in this discussion or anything to do with off-roading this side of the pond? Not at all IMHO. No fast upward acceleration means 1engineer's explanation is utterly invalid and has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Disclaimer: like i said above...i am sure that i misunderstood him...so, correct me if i am wrong.

I don't think you fully understand. What you are describing (5-10 MPH all the time) isn't the full spectrum of wheeling. For example these two videos are shot in the same general area, some high speed stuff, and some crawling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO6ZjZ6sEl4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfl7lUR_WTE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Thai]

But let's concentrate on situation where KDSS does its thing (slow speed)...since that is the topic of discussion.

 

[mgrande]

But let's concentrate on situation where KDSS does its thing (slow speed)...since that is the topic of discussion.

The original question was if KDSS was the best off road. KDSS is great, especially for people who want the assurance of minimal body roll on road. But I wouldn't say its the best.

 

[rebelbowtie]

Yes, i know...my old G-wagen did not come with rear sway. But, it certainly had front sway bar.

The bottom line is that removing sways is not that smart IMHO in a daily driver or semi-daily driver, especially a high COG vehicle! I bet you that some who do it because after going around a corner, they are still alive...so, it must be OK! Sways do more than that. Sway helps a vehicle maintain balance, not just around a corner, but also in emergency handling! When you are cranking the wheel emergently to the right to avoid a deer and then cut the wheel to the left to compensate, this is when those sways come into play!! And please, don't tell me that you learn how to drive without them. These emergencies are all about reflex and over-compensating! Unless you're a professional driver or crash dummy, you ain't prepared for it!

Think of it another way...why do you think disco's on Jeeps, Land Rovers, etc. are so popular with the (sensible) off-roading crowd if sways are not important??? Those folks are smart and experienced!

Imagine this...your son/daughter is in a friend's modified 4runner (with no sways) and it flips over in an emergency maneuver. How would you feel? Or you're a bystander on the side of the road (fixing a flat, walking/jogging, etc.) and you get hit by a truck with no sways as it was trying to avoid a racoon on the road? If you're the driver in a high-profile accident, then do you think that your insurance will back you up?? Do you think that civil lawsuit will not come up from the victim or victim's family?? Hey, stranger things have happened!

My point is that no matter how good the advertisement is for a coil-over etc., the idea of taking out the sways in a daily driver is dumb. Don't get me wrong, if you do it to a weekend off-roader, then sure, go ahead...makes lots of sense!

Another point...if coil-overs are the solve all, then why don't OEMs do it and throw away the sways? It is probably cheaper for them in the end too!

Call me cautious...call me a Prius owner...fine, but i will personally kill the person who cause an accident or injure my family due to stupidly modifying their road car in a way to endanger the public!

You are giving the stock sway bar way too much credit here, also giving the insurance company too much credit as well. I wrecked my old truck to the tune of $10,000 and it didn't have a sway bar. I lost control but not because of the sway bar, because I broke the driver side tie rod and couldn't steer. The insurance company had no idea the sway bar was removed, in fact they probably thought it broke in the accident because when the shop fixed my truck they put new sway bar end links back on my truck. But yes of course someone would feel guilt if they killed someone in an accident regardless of how their vehicle was modified or rather not modified.

 

[Thai]

The original question was if KDSS was the best off road. KDSS is great, especially for people who want the assurance of minimal body roll on road. But I wouldn't say its the best.

That's the point! KDSS offers the best of both worlds. YOUR method is great off-road, but a potentially deadly disaster on-road...and probably illegal too.

Many years ago on another forum, i read about a rollover accident involving a guy in his Defender that cost the lives of his kids who was in the car with him. Investigators found that he took off his sway bars (since backets were still there on the vehicle). LR representatives denied that it was a design defect since he took off the sways that was included in the vehicle from factory. Insurance did not cover him for obvious reason.

Is your Tacoma/4runner safer than a Defender? Sure...esp. with VSC (stability control, etc.). But, remember, those safety nets were designed with the original suspension. Sways are there for on-road safety, esp. in a high center-of-gravity vehicle...that much is clear. You take it out and you open yourself to a world of hurt if bad things happen relating to it. No one is gonna be in your corner.

Tread carefully on-road IMHO with this sway bar delete mod.

 

[rebelbowtie]

I am assuming only because lives were lost they did that thorough and investigation.