What makes a Toyota so reliable?
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Patriotnumber1
New member
I know I am 8 years late to this forum, but hopefully someone will see this thread. My understanding of Toyota superiority in regards to reliability is probably the closest to answering the original question so far in this thread.
When it comes to Toyota engine reliability, my understanding is that in addition to an iron sleeve in their engine blocks, they also hard chrome all engine sleeves. Why? Hard chrome is twice as hard as iron and therefore "Hard chrome plated parts will outperform unplated parts 2 to 10 times in usage". Add to that the low friction coefficient plus the anti-galling properties of hard chrome and you have an engine that will stay cooler and last much longer. With this in mind, all military grade AK-47's and AR-15's barrels are chrome lined to stand up to the abuse required in a combat service weapon environment.
Another aspect of superior reliability for Japanese autos is harder to prove but, if true ,plays a significant part in longevity of a vehicle. I was talking with a engineer who work at a parts manufacturer that supplies parts for Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler. He told me that manufacturers approach his company and want certain parts made. And in this day and age failure rates are calculated, and are well know to a certain degree. Example: A door handle can use cheaper plastic and have 25,000 cycles to failure (on average) at a cost of 4.00$ per unit. Or, you can purchase a better handle that uses higher quality plastic that has 38,000 cycles to failure, at a per unit cost of 5.50$ There are even better and even worse handles available depending on what you want. Better the part the more it costs. Considering the American manufacturers have to deal with the unionization of their plants, they can not afford the higher quality parts since unionization drives wages sky high. Japanese manufacturers here in the US notoriously pay far less than their American counterparts. And by paying workers less they can afford higher quality parts including the additional and expensive hard chroming process.
When it comes to Toyota engine reliability, my understanding is that in addition to an iron sleeve in their engine blocks, they also hard chrome all engine sleeves. Why? Hard chrome is twice as hard as iron and therefore "Hard chrome plated parts will outperform unplated parts 2 to 10 times in usage". Add to that the low friction coefficient plus the anti-galling properties of hard chrome and you have an engine that will stay cooler and last much longer. With this in mind, all military grade AK-47's and AR-15's barrels are chrome lined to stand up to the abuse required in a combat service weapon environment.
Another aspect of superior reliability for Japanese autos is harder to prove but, if true ,plays a significant part in longevity of a vehicle. I was talking with a engineer who work at a parts manufacturer that supplies parts for Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler. He told me that manufacturers approach his company and want certain parts made. And in this day and age failure rates are calculated, and are well know to a certain degree. Example: A door handle can use cheaper plastic and have 25,000 cycles to failure (on average) at a cost of 4.00$ per unit. Or, you can purchase a better handle that uses higher quality plastic that has 38,000 cycles to failure, at a per unit cost of 5.50$ There are even better and even worse handles available depending on what you want. Better the part the more it costs. Considering the American manufacturers have to deal with the unionization of their plants, they can not afford the higher quality parts since unionization drives wages sky high. Japanese manufacturers here in the US notoriously pay far less than their American counterparts. And by paying workers less they can afford higher quality parts including the additional and expensive hard chroming process.
I always felt that a big part of Toyota longevity is due to the fact that they are not over powered.
I can honestly say that every Toyota I've ever owned is underpowered, especially my 2016 T4R. On the opposite side, some domestic vehicles Ive owned had more power than I could ask for, but would start coming apart at 70k miles.
I can honestly say that every Toyota I've ever owned is underpowered, especially my 2016 T4R. On the opposite side, some domestic vehicles Ive owned had more power than I could ask for, but would start coming apart at 70k miles.
BlackWorksInc
New member
Eh... unfortunately the "cost cutting" is slowly becoming a priority it seems in the last few years...
I haven't seen any of our aluminum engines with chromed liners; they're all nitrite coated I believe.
The real reason Toyotas are so reliable is because they use whole ground up unicorns and not just the horn.
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Lester Lugnut
New member
I know a couple of folks who work at the San Antonio Tundra/Tacoma plant.
Toyota is relocating their corp HQ from CA to TX
One of them explained that because Toyota is presently based in CA they are required to pay the Tundra/Tacoma employees using CA payroll rules.
Once Toyota relocates to TX, that's over with and likely one of the reasons why they left CA. There are others I'm sure. One of these folks made it clear this was not going over well with the SA working class.
The other told me that Toyota's biggest fear right now was the UAW. They've been knocking on the door and the knocking is getting harder and more frequent. There are a number of "watering holes" not far from the plant. UAW reps are spending a lot of time there...so I hear.
It will be interesting to see how things look in a couple of years.
Knight-Errant
New member
Everyone knows that gremlins like to play havoc with mechanical systems...and the Japanese invented gremlins to wreak havoc on allied planes during WWII.
Naturally gremlins now like to mess around with non-Japanese cars. Toyotas probably come equipped with anti-gremlin technology.
Naturally gremlins now like to mess around with non-Japanese cars. Toyotas probably come equipped with anti-gremlin technology.
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Bstrom
New member
As mentioned above, Toyota has slipped in many respects. Just read the issues presented here each week. Some are seldom, too many are frequent.
My '99 has 184k miles and has a quite a rap sheet of repairs, including transmission and rear end issues well before their time. With a long list of dealer maintenance, I am confident it is in good shape for now but will need to replace ball joints to prevent anything catastrophic, considering they designed the 3rd gens upside down! Plenty of engine reliability it seems with no oil burning yet, but I will be careful to keep maintenance up to make my target of 300k miles.
Too many foibles to ignore and hardly cheap fixes. No, the big T is not what it used to be but it could! Just get back to basics and build smart, like they used to.
My '99 has 184k miles and has a quite a rap sheet of repairs, including transmission and rear end issues well before their time. With a long list of dealer maintenance, I am confident it is in good shape for now but will need to replace ball joints to prevent anything catastrophic, considering they designed the 3rd gens upside down! Plenty of engine reliability it seems with no oil burning yet, but I will be careful to keep maintenance up to make my target of 300k miles.
Too many foibles to ignore and hardly cheap fixes. No, the big T is not what it used to be but it could! Just get back to basics and build smart, like they used to.
I just read a few posts on here and am posting.. sorry lol.
Anyways, I just had a 2015 Tacoma which was totaled 4/15. I purchased it having ONLY experienced late 90s/early 2000 Tacoma's and a couple friends Camry/Corolla's.
I was very disappointed once owning the truck for just HOURS how shitty the build quality was. Even the castle nut on the suspension was CHEAP and rounded off with under 500 miles on the truck? I've never rounded a large fastener in my life, let alone on a brand new truck. The interior was all clipped together, and all those clips broke. No matter how I tried, even the DEALERSHIP broke them when installing after I had to buy them. The cheapest little plastic clip I've ever seen was like $5 each? WTF?
They broke 2 sets and said they would have to order more to try again. I ended up using industrial velcro to hold them on. I now own a 99' 4runner and will be buying a Corolla for a daily/beater rig. I still have a 2014 Corolla in my family, but I'll never buy a new one again. Unless something changes majorly, which from the quick posts I saw won't be happening it seems.
Anyways, I just had a 2015 Tacoma which was totaled 4/15. I purchased it having ONLY experienced late 90s/early 2000 Tacoma's and a couple friends Camry/Corolla's.
I was very disappointed once owning the truck for just HOURS how shitty the build quality was. Even the castle nut on the suspension was CHEAP and rounded off with under 500 miles on the truck? I've never rounded a large fastener in my life, let alone on a brand new truck. The interior was all clipped together, and all those clips broke. No matter how I tried, even the DEALERSHIP broke them when installing after I had to buy them. The cheapest little plastic clip I've ever seen was like $5 each? WTF?
They broke 2 sets and said they would have to order more to try again. I ended up using industrial velcro to hold them on. I now own a 99' 4runner and will be buying a Corolla for a daily/beater rig. I still have a 2014 Corolla in my family, but I'll never buy a new one again. Unless something changes majorly, which from the quick posts I saw won't be happening it seems.
The Toyota of the 80s/90s 4runner/supra/etc era and the current Toyota with the advent of the 21st century is not the same Toyota.
Quality obviously went down when they shifted a lot of the manufacturing to the US.
Look at the lawsuits against Toyota for the unintended acceleration issue -- which by the way, caused Toyota customers to DIE. Case in point. Yes, it could be a coincidence that the technology wasn't around or prevalent the 90s or whatever, but still -- It's hard to argue that quality is better in the US than in Japan, manufacturing wise.
May the classic and 3rd gens live on before we have to get into crappy 4th and 5th gens.
Quality obviously went down when they shifted a lot of the manufacturing to the US.
Look at the lawsuits against Toyota for the unintended acceleration issue -- which by the way, caused Toyota customers to DIE. Case in point. Yes, it could be a coincidence that the technology wasn't around or prevalent the 90s or whatever, but still -- It's hard to argue that quality is better in the US than in Japan, manufacturing wise.
May the classic and 3rd gens live on before we have to get into crappy 4th and 5th gens.
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T4R2014
Elite Member
I feel that the current Toyota does not have the same quality or appeal as the Toyota of the 80's and 90's. Then again, I can say the same for Nissan... and Mazda... and Mitsubishi... Remember when Isuzu was high and mighty in the 90's?
It's Japanese automakers in general. They all had a certain wow factor in their high end products way back when, but due to government regulations and probably consumer demand, they have aimed their efforts at making bland and uninnovative econoboxes. It's what the majority wanted, I guess. Screw them.
Lester Lugnut
New member
I remember when beer tasted better.
Runer4Life
Member
BlackWorksInc
New member
Good lord man, what did you and that dealer do to those panels!? I have a baggy of extra Yellow & Pink retainer clips I keep from panel replacements and so on for when they go missing. But I rarely have an issue with the new clips for panels in terms of them breaking, hell my 4th gen has been apart multiple times from me tinkering around and the panels are nice and snug like new with no rattling. Hell I've been replacing dashpads in 4Runners, Camry's, Solaras, and Avalons since last spring and I have maybe had less than a half dozen of those yellow/white clips break on me, they're usually really flexible/springy and very forgiving if you are pulling the panels off correctly.
Granted I'm not entirely thrilled with how half the damn car is clipped together, it's both a nice feature and a pain for assembly/reassembly (order of operations is critical since stuff clips into everything else). But I rarely have them break on me, I actually have the old metal style retaining clips break panels more than the new stuff. I kind of prefer them to having everything screwed together because as we've found with the C0M recall the plastic retaining studs that screws go into can wear out/break when that plastic ages.
Also do you mean the castle nut for the ball joints? I don't usually round those off unless I'm not using the right tool or angle, were you using a proper sized socket/box end of a wrench?
To be fair, the accelerator pedal fiasco got way blown out of proportion and the largest cause for them was operator error and owner negligence in the form double pedal driving and hitting the wrong pedal (yes a lot of people still drive like that as unbelievable as it is) and too many floor mats and crap rolling around on the floor (I still see this regularly in customer's cars, like a dumptruck decided to just let go in the floor pan...)
Of the small percentage of legitimate UA claims there's the theory that Tin Whiskers were a culprit (very likely since about 2012 was the last year that Areonautics and Automotive could use Lead infused Solder, of which at least 5% will prevent Tin Whiskers), as well as a possibility of an un-optimized coding structure that could lead to a memory bleed issue. Toyota was not and is not the only one with UA related issues, it's a result of the technology and current practices in the industry (i.e. Toyota is probably the least likely out of most manufacturers to have module or coding issues, Chrysler is world reknown for their modules constantly failing and poor programming quality, not to mention BMW and others having similar issues in terms of modules; most mechanics will not question a Chrysler with a bad BCM or ECM, but they'll rethink their diagnosis when looking at a Honda or Toyota ECM needing replacement.) But they were the most publicized out of all them next to Audi's similar fiasco in the late 90's.
~
In any case, quality is very different than it used to be. The plastics and steel are better yes (a customer wanted me to replace the tape deck on their '01 Prius and in the end the center console trim almost disintegrated when removing because the plastic had become so brittle like they usually do in those old Toyotas), but the design principles are different. Most of our grab handles are clipped into the sheet metal (mainly because if they were screwed in then the side curtain airbags would not deploy correctly), much of the vehicle is designed to crumple and break away in collisions vs. older "sturdier" vehicles that were not designed this way. Then there's the plethora of useless crap that everyone clamours for that costs an arm and a leg to fix and has issues (Blind Spot Monitoring, Automatic Rear Hatches, Parking Assist, ect.), much of the problems seem to be electrical. It's not as bad as some other brands thankfully, but some stuff seems far too regular/consistent; i.e. we seem to see door lock actuators failing a lot, which to me is ridiculous. Then you have the Entune head units, thankfully much of the issues tend to be software related and that's something that you can't fault Toyota for too much (trying to keep up with the latest OS for Apple or Android in this particular application is difficult and Toyota is not the only company struggling with it), but there's still a large number of headunits that seem to have internal issues and we're replacing regularly. I have a Tacoma that's supposed to come back to get a new headunit because we can't set the clock on it, I'm not kidding you... you can do everything but set the clock; you go to the clock setting screen and all it will let you do is choose between 12hr & 24hr.
Then you have the decontenting and "cheapening" of vehicles for higher price margins? You realize that my '04 4Runner Sport Edition 4WD with the optional V8 was about $38~39k brand new? You can barely get a SR5 for that price these days. Our Corollas are rattle cans and there's a noticeable "cost cutting" in effect there, particularly the base models (what do you expect for a cheap eco-car?), the Camry's are nice but they genuinely feel like Jumbo-Corollas in terms of quality. The Prius line is far from quiet, customers will comment "wow it's so quiet!" and in my head I'm like, "yeah... listen to that plastic creak and rattle and that Prius Cheap... I mean Prius C not have rear speakers..." The higher end models are thankfully better built, but some stuff is still either poorly engineered, thought out, implemented, or just plain poorly built. You can tell which vehicles were produced in the US and/or Mexico vs. the ones made in Japan. The Corollas, Camrys, and Tacoma are noticeably lacking in build quality (I had a Tacoma a month or two ago come in for squeaking when braking, turns out there was never any lube put on the backing plates of the drum brakes, the guy had barely 5k on the truck.) The Tundras are surprisingly not as "cheap" in feel despite being made in the same plant as the Tacomas, but for the money you spend on even a lightly equipped on it better damn well not be.
Over all Toyota still makes a good product and has a better track record for reliability and quality, not to mention for the most part when there is a serious issue they will usually do the right thing (i.e. dash pads, the oil consumption engines, ect.); though in the last decade or so it's required a bit more coaxing than I think it should (i.e. 4th Gen, FJ, 5th Gen DriveLine Clunk, Dashpads on Camrys & 4th Gen 4Runners, ect.), particularly if you remember the older days where Toyota stepped up and took care of their customers because they released a bad series of sludge motors. They are still a good company, but the in the last decade or so there has been a noticeable influx of "cost cutting" and "economic efficiency" that was not as prevalent in their earlier "Kaizen" years. At least that's my opinion based on years of observations, diagnosing, and working on Toyotas as well as watching how the company has been operating.
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It's a 80's pickup, not sure exactly what year.
A lot of people still drive those today. Just check out the 1st gen sections on YotaTech or here.
This particular case with the clips, were the small white clips that held the plastic trim above the door panels on. Those, along with every single panel in my truck were vibrating/rattling excessively from the premium factory Kicker (I believe it was Kicker) sound system on the 15' Tacoma.
I returned the morning after purchasing the truck at dealer close, with complaints of the entire cab rattling horribly. That turned out to get me nowhere at over 5 dealerships and corporate calls. I removed everything to sound deaden myself.
Far as the castle nut, yes on the balljoint. I have been using the same set of Snap-on 1/2 sockets for 10 years that my uncle gave me for all suspension jobs. It was the proper size, I'm not a mechanic for a living, but I surely am capable of removing a castle nut. The dealership (Toyota of Olympia, WA) didn't even carry a castle nut replacement and had to ORDER me one for $11.
That was why I noted the age of the vehicle as a factor. The truck was brand new, not some old nut with corrosion and alternate factors. It was just awful material quality. No manufacturer is or ever was perfect, but Toyota has definitely lost me after my 15' Tacoma.
I will remain loyal and appreciative of their vehicles, but it won't be on anything new(er).
piccrazy30
New member
I don't know about all the technical mechanical stuff but what I do know is out of all the vehicles we've owned (which has been quite a few) the Toyota's have been the best.
The 86 Camry was given to me by my Grandma, she too extremely good care of it. I was only 18 and was pretty stupid. About the only thing I did was replaced the tires and maybe an oil change. It smoked, the cv's clicked while turning and the final straw her death at 256k. When you can do absolutely nothing and the car can go that long and run well....she had some pep!! Toyota did something right with that one.
We also have a 88 Camry wagon (yes we like Camry's & Runners). Bought it for like $1,200. Needed some work just never got around to doing it. Its got 165k and has sat for a long time. I know for the most part its all about the battery but one turn of the key (when jumping it) and she roars back to life. Drives like she never sat sit for a day. I've decided to make this one my project/learning car.
We had a 99 Runner but not long enough to truly give feedback on it. My 04 has been nothing but fantastic. The best thing about it, from a beginner stand point is its easy to work on. Even for a girl learning from the computer. Our 03 Runner has been awesome too. Today the trac/abs & vsc lights came on, so I gotta figure that out.
We've owned a Ford truck, Chevy (I think) cavalier wagon, Honda civic, Oldsmobile boat lol, Cadillac boat lol, Some kind of van, there might be more I just don't remember. A friend told me at one point we should open a used car lot.
The 86 Camry was given to me by my Grandma, she too extremely good care of it. I was only 18 and was pretty stupid. About the only thing I did was replaced the tires and maybe an oil change. It smoked, the cv's clicked while turning and the final straw her death at 256k. When you can do absolutely nothing and the car can go that long and run well....she had some pep!! Toyota did something right with that one.
We also have a 88 Camry wagon (yes we like Camry's & Runners). Bought it for like $1,200. Needed some work just never got around to doing it. Its got 165k and has sat for a long time. I know for the most part its all about the battery but one turn of the key (when jumping it) and she roars back to life. Drives like she never sat sit for a day. I've decided to make this one my project/learning car.
We had a 99 Runner but not long enough to truly give feedback on it. My 04 has been nothing but fantastic. The best thing about it, from a beginner stand point is its easy to work on. Even for a girl learning from the computer. Our 03 Runner has been awesome too. Today the trac/abs & vsc lights came on, so I gotta figure that out.
We've owned a Ford truck, Chevy (I think) cavalier wagon, Honda civic, Oldsmobile boat lol, Cadillac boat lol, Some kind of van, there might be more I just don't remember. A friend told me at one point we should open a used car lot.
Steamfitter
New member
-lower revving, lower HP engines
-simple designs
-excellent QC in Japan factories
-infrequent engine design changes
I've had 57,000 KM trouble free with my '13. The only thing that I wasn't happy with was the stereo system (door panel speaker rattle), otherwise a great vehicle. Time will tell if it can make it to 20 years without major repairs.
-simple designs
-excellent QC in Japan factories
-infrequent engine design changes
I've had 57,000 KM trouble free with my '13. The only thing that I wasn't happy with was the stereo system (door panel speaker rattle), otherwise a great vehicle. Time will tell if it can make it to 20 years without major repairs.
trovergraywilson
New member
Well-engineered, lower-rev, durable engines.
The 3F/3F-E from the FJ60/62 and 5VZ-FE from the 3rd-gen T4R have a lower, broader, balanced torque curve and wear less than comparable others.
The VQ25DE in my 2003 Pathfinder was powerful and rev-happy, but developed valve chattering by 50K. The 6VD1W in my 1996 Rodeo ran hot despite a ton of work, and eventually cracked the head. Both had regular maintenance.
20 less hp is worth 20 more years of reliability (my 2c).
The 3F/3F-E from the FJ60/62 and 5VZ-FE from the 3rd-gen T4R have a lower, broader, balanced torque curve and wear less than comparable others.
The VQ25DE in my 2003 Pathfinder was powerful and rev-happy, but developed valve chattering by 50K. The 6VD1W in my 1996 Rodeo ran hot despite a ton of work, and eventually cracked the head. Both had regular maintenance.
20 less hp is worth 20 more years of reliability (my 2c).
EEEliminator
Member
when beer tasted more like beer and less like tap wateround:
Why was your VW thread closed? Is it just rebadged Dodge like the VW minivan?
