Dyno and Remapped today

[red-runner]

So, I finally got around to installing the upgraded fuel pump on my 4Runner. Was definitely not getting enough gas since installing SC, 7th injector, and URD pulley.

Local shop did some tuning (fuel map) on the dyno, and I'm finally feeling like the SC and other upgrades were well-worth it. The tune was essential. AFR was in mid 13s all over the place, but especially at high RPMs. Should be closer to 12... The stock map just wasn't a good match with the upgrades I'm running (including intake, headers, etc.)

The before was 187.0(HP)@4600RPM, 229.2(ft-lbs)@4100RPM

The after is 217.6(HP)@5250RPM, 255.1(ft-lbs)@3900RPM

Big difference obviously, and I'm happy with my truck again. To be honest, I was a little down on it after the upgrade. It was definitely more powerful, but clearly not running properly. Much better now.

 

[kigmob]

So, I finally got around to installing the upgraded fuel pump on my 4Runner. Was definitely not getting enough gas since installing SC, 7th injector, and URD pulley.

Local shop did some tuning (fuel map) on the dyno, and I'm finally feeling like the SC and other upgrades were well-worth it. The tune was essential. AFR was in mid 13s all over the place, but especially at high RPMs. Should be closer to 12... The stock map just wasn't a good match with the upgrades I'm running (including intake, headers, etc.)

The before was 187.0(HP)@4600RPM, 229.2(ft-lbs)@4100RPM

The after is 217.6(HP)@5250RPM, 255.1(ft-lbs)@3900RPM

Big difference obviously, and I'm happy with my truck again. To be honest, I was a little down on it after the upgrade. It was definitely more powerful, but clearly not running properly. Much better now.

Good to hear! Has there been any tuning done on the timing map? I find myself tuning on this map the most. Come to think of it I haven't even touched the fuel map that my 7th kit came with from URD. Based on what I've read, my AFR's seem perfect. In closed loop the AFR slowly drops as boost increases. It can get to as low as 10.7-10.9 at around 2500-3000 RPMs if I'm high in boost. Once it gets past 3000 RPMs, its climbs up to 11.5 and stays there. Some would say this is a little rich but I'd rather be rich than lean when boosting.

 

[red-runner]

Nothing on timing map. Ignorance here, but I wasn't aware that was tunable. Will look into it. New to boosting...

 

[BigBluePile]

I'd love to get mine dyno'd, it's cool to see your results!

 

[kigmob]

Nothing on timing map. Ignorance here, but I wasn't aware that was tunable. Will look into it. New to boosting...

Timing is the most important thing when boosting. Without retarding the timing the engine will ping like crazy (pre ignition) which will lead to catastrophic damage. If you have the URD 7th injector kit, the piggyback can be plugged into a computer and tuned using the R4 software it comes with. Once connected you can tune 2 maps: timing (MAP A) and fuel (MAP B).

 

[red-runner]

Once connected you can tune 2 maps: timing (MAP A) and fuel (MAP B).

Got it. That's just my ignorance showing. The tech did tune both maps... I clearly did not know what he meant by "both".

I'll learn more about this, and start doing some tuning myself. I have the software and stuff, but worry about doing it myself. Now that it's got a good baseline, I'll worry less.

Very interested in learning more about tuning with wideband, but I'm not setup for that yet. ...and still have a ton to learn obviously. Need to install some gauges too.

 

[weekendclimber]

The before was 187.0(HP)@4600RPM, 229.2(ft-lbs)@4100RPM

The after is 217.6(HP)@5250RPM, 255.1(ft-lbs)@3900RPM

Forgive my ignorance, but I looked through your build thread just to verify that you're running the 5VZ-FE, and I was under the impression that the stock 6 cylinder runs at 183hp @ 4800rpm? That's net, so assuming that there is some loss, I was under the impression the S/C added at least another 60-65hp. 217 seems surprisingly low to me. Please, again forgive my ignorance. Take me to school. op2:

 

[kigmob]

Got it. That's just my ignorance showing. The tech did tune both maps... I clearly did not know what he meant by "both".

I'll learn more about this, and start doing some tuning myself. I have the software and stuff, but worry about doing it myself. Now that it's got a good baseline, I'll worry less.

Very interested in learning more about tuning with wideband, but I'm not setup for that yet. ...and still have a ton to learn obviously. Need to install some gauges too.

Gotcha! I was nervous about tuning myself as well. After months of research though, I felt like I could handle it. Google "Gadgets U-Tune Guide" and let the fun begin. That is where I learned most of my stuff. Also check out Speedys Garage. He supercharged his 4 runner and did an EXCELLENT write up on the tuning process.

Heck, heres the links:

Gadgets U-Tune Guide: Discusses the basic principles of tuning and explains how to tune the FTC (fuel and timing calibrator) that comes with the URD 6 injector upgrade kit.

http://www.vaglinks.com/OBDII/Gadgetonline.com_U-Tune.pdf

Gadgets U-Tune Guide (AIC Supplement): This is guide you want to focus on when learning how to tune your 7th injector kit. AIC stands for additional injector controller (which is what the 7th injector kits come with).

http://www.lcengineering.com/LCInstructions/1063078 u-tune-aic.pdf

Speedy's Garage:

Project SportRunner - TRD 3.4L Supercharger Analysis and Tuning

Hope this helps!

 

[gamefreakgc]

Out of curiosity, have you ever replaced your fuel filter? If it's dirty/clogged then it's restricting fuel flow and will add even more fuel pressure to your injectors. The bigger pump might still be not quite enough. How many miles on your rig?

 

[red-runner]

Hope this helps!

It helps indeed. I've just been reading the Utune AIC doc. Now I'm shopping for wideband sensors and stuff. ...a fool and his money.

So good to be excited about my 4Runner again. Thanks for the help.

 

[red-runner]

Out of curiosity, have you ever replaced your fuel filter? If it's dirty/clogged then it's restricting fuel flow and will add even more fuel pressure to your injectors. The bigger pump might still be not quite enough. How many miles on your rig?

Fuel filter replaced a few months ago during a larger maintenance involving a new engine. Fuel pump was probably not really a problem, but it's good peace of mind (plus, it came with the kit -- how could I leave any part stock!?) The maps were the big difference makers for sure.

 

[02SE]

Forgive my ignorance, but I looked through your build thread just to verify that you're running the 5VZ-FE, and I was under the impression that the stock 6 cylinder runs at 183hp @ 4800rpm? That's net, so assuming that there is some loss, I was under the impression the S/C added at least another 60-65hp. 217 seems surprisingly low to me. Please, again forgive my ignorance. Take me to school. op2:

The Horsepower ratings that manufacturers advertise, are at the crank.

On a chassis dyno, the power is measured at the tire contact patch.

The amount of power loss through the driveline, depends on several variables. But a 20-25% loss as compared to crankshaft numbers, is usually pretty close.

The percentage of drivetrain power loss for an AWD vehicle, is a bit higher still.

Of course there are some very inefficient combos, and/or overworked, improperly built transmissions that might not be able to handle a seriously modified engine. In which case the drivetrain power loss can be much higher.

 

[JayRolla]

Mid 13 afr under boost? Scary. I wonder how much detonation that motor saw during those conditions. 9 to mid low 12's are safest. When tuning I never go above 11.5 on pump gas. I was also under assumption that timing control don't work. Any adjustments and ecu just adds timing back to where it was.

 

[JayRolla]

Out of curiosity, have you ever replaced your fuel filter? If it's dirty/clogged then it's restricting fuel flow and will add even more fuel pressure to your injectors. The bigger pump might still be not quite enough. How many miles on your rig?

Bigger pump not enough? I've cut into very old fuel filters and they always look clean. When on alcohol Cars It eats rubber and clogs filters. Gas it's a good detergent. It eats through all but not the lines. Filters don't clog that often

 

[kigmob]

Mid 13 afr under boost? Scary. I wonder how much detonation that motor saw during those conditions. 9 to mid low 12's are safest. When tuning I never go above 11.5 on pump gas. I was also under assumption that timing control don't work. Any adjustments and ecu just adds timing back to where it was.

I wouldn't say mid 13 is scary for 1-2 psi...Thats actually how mine is set and I can't change it (this is how URD's built in closed loop enrichment is set). The only thing I can change is at what psi I want the mixture to richen in closed loop. I have mine set at the lowest, 1 psi. It constantly drops though. As soon as I hit 1-2 psi I see 13-13.5 AFR then it drop to 12-12.5 for 2-3 and 12 and under for 3+ psi.

And the timing control does work. The URD piggyback intercepts the crank and camshaft signals and kind of tricks the ECU or something. It allows the ECU to retard the timing past what its factory limits are. Say the ECU can only retard the timing 7 degrees max. By adding retard using the URD piggyback's timing map, it allows the ECU to further retard the timing past this limit at whatever psi/rpm you tell it to. Not sure on EXACTLY how it works, but it works. I know because after I did some tuning and retarded the timing in the areas it pinged, it no longer pings anymore.

 

[JayRolla]

I wouldn't say mid 13 is scary for 1-2 psi...Thats actually how mine is set and I can't change it (this is how URD's built in closed loop enrichment is set). The only thing I can change is at what psi I want the mixture to richen in closed loop. I have mine set at the lowest, 1 psi. It constantly drops though. As soon as I hit 1-2 psi I see 13-13.5 AFR then it drop to 12-12.5 for 2-3 and 12 and under for 3+ psi.

And the timing control does work. The URD piggyback intercepts the crank and camshaft signals and kind of tricks the ECU or something. It allows the ECU to retard the timing past what its factory limits are. Say the ECU can only retard the timing 7 degrees max. By adding retard using the URD piggyback's timing map, it allows the ECU to further retard the timing past this limit at whatever psi/rpm you tell it to. Not sure on EXACTLY how it works, but it works. I know because after I did some tuning and retarded the timing in the areas it pinged, it no longer pings anymore.

Ohh, I see, I thought you where saying full WOT afr's where above 13 before the tuning. Yes with that low of boost and load on motor the mid afr's are fine.

So on the timing control your just telling the ecu to allow more timing retard when it detects knock. Since thats only when the ecu retards at WOT that I now of. In other cars ive tuned ecu will advance timing with no counts, hold timing with 1-3 counts and retard after that. But the ecu's ive tuned will pull timing forever to save the motor, must be since the our ecu is made for an n/a setup. You cant fully tune out the timing map like most tuning options on this ecu then. You want to tell it to have less timing when boost hits before it retards to eliminate knock. Not the other way around. Kind of sucks but at least its better than nothing.

 

[kigmob]

Ohh, I see, I thought you where saying full WOT afr's where above 13 before the tuning. Yes with that low of boost and load on motor the mid afr's are fine.

So on the timing control your just telling the ecu to allow more timing retard when it detects knock. Since thats only when the ecu retards at WOT that I now of. In other cars ive tuned ecu will advance timing with no counts, hold timing with 1-3 counts and retard after that. But the ecu's ive tuned will pull timing forever to save the motor, must be since the our ecu is made for an n/a setup. You cant fully tune out the timing map like most tuning options on this ecu then. You want to tell it to have less timing when boost hits before it retards to eliminate knock. Not the other way around. Kind of sucks but at least its better than nothing.

As far as I'm concerned you tell it to retard the timing whenever you want it to, not just when it knocks. The 5VZ's ECU only uses its knock sensors above 3000 RPM's, this is why these trucks will ping like crazy in the 2000-3000 RPM range while boosting. Most of the time, you will need to retard the timing most in the range mentioned above. I'm still unclear as to how it works when you add retard when the knock sensors are working (above 3K). I think it is more of just helping the ECU retard the timing enough to avoid it even knocking in the first place?

This is all information I have gathered through reading Gadget's U-Tune guides. I am sure Gadget himself can give a much better description as to what exactly is going on when the piggyback retards the timing.

 

[JayRolla]

As far as I'm concerned you tell it to retard the timing whenever you want it to, not just when it knocks. The 5VZ's ECU only uses its knock sensors above 3000 RPM's, this is why these trucks will ping like crazy in the 2000-3000 RPM range while boosting. Most of the time, you will need to retard the timing most in the range mentioned above. I'm still unclear as to how it works when you add retard when the knock sensors are working (above 3K). I think it is more of just helping the ECU retard the timing enough to avoid it even knocking in the first place?

This is all information I have gathered through reading Gadget's U-Tune guides. I am sure Gadget himself can give a much better description as to what exactly is going on when the piggyback retards the timing.

Does the URD give you datalogging, are you able to watch the timing map and actually see the numbers change?

 

[J. B.]

So, I finally got around to installing the upgraded fuel pump on my 4Runner. Was definitely not getting enough gas since installing SC, 7th injector, and URD pulley.

Local shop did some tuning (fuel map) on the dyno, and I'm finally feeling like the SC and other upgrades were well-worth it. The tune was essential. AFR was in mid 13s all over the place, but especially at high RPMs. Should be closer to 12... The stock map just wasn't a good match with the upgrades I'm running (including intake, headers, etc.)

The before was 187.0(HP)@4600RPM, 229.2(ft-lbs)@4100RPM

The after is 217.6(HP)@5250RPM, 255.1(ft-lbs)@3900RPM

Big difference obviously, and I'm happy with my truck again. To be honest, I was a little down on it after the upgrade. It was definitely more powerful, but clearly not running properly. Much better now.

You have headers and exhaust and supercharger w/ URD 2.2 pulley and 7th injector plus tuning and that's what you pulled on the dyno?

I know different dynos read different and there's other factors that affect the numbers too, but damn that's nuts.

My truck pulled 166 hp and 200 tq with just headers and exhaust. This was before supercharger with URD 2.2 and 7th injector with tuning was added.
I haven't had it dyno'd after the charger, but I would think I'm at least be at 240-250 hp at the wheels with 250-275 tq.

What type of dyno were you on? Mine was done in 2wd on a dynojet.

 

[AZ4Running]

Those are some pretty nice results. Tuning makes a huge difference not just in the power made but for the life of the motor as well. Did you do the trans valve body upgrade with shift kit to beef up the trans?