Is it just me or do Limiteds (and Nightshades) have some sort of stigma about them?

[RobS10]

:laugh:

I saw a study that concluded trim level is directly related to the size of your junk.

The "higher" the trim level the smaller your junk...period....I would like to argue that I am the exception as I drive a PRO, but.... :crybaby:

Limited owners were not included in the study as they could not find any men willing do admit they drove one....they all claimed it was their spouses vehicle.

:laugh:

 

[4Rums]

I've thought about doing an AWD conversion on my TRD Off-Road. On the surface, it would seem to be straight forward. Swap out the transfer case with one from a Limited. But I could easily be wrong, very wrong.

I've looked into this and don't see that anyone has ever done it. I don't want to be the first. Have you heard otherwise?

It will be much, much easier to get a Limited (with the Full time 4WD transfer case) and add aftermarket lockers and do a front end conversion. That has been done by a few people.

 

[downshift]

It will be much, much easier to get a Limited (with the Full time 4WD transfer case) and add aftermarket lockers and do a front end conversion. That has been done by a few people.

Agreed.

When it comes time to replace my '17, I will seriously consider that. I'd rather have a limited slip in the rear though, it fits my needs better than a locker.

The downside is the Limited comes with crap I don't want or need: leather seats, sun roof, stuff like that. A lot come with three rows, I know that's an option but a lot of them on the lot have it.

 

[Jetboy]

Agreed.

When it comes time to replace my '17, I will seriously consider that. I'd rather have a limited slip in the rear though, it fits my needs better than a locker.

The downside is the Limited comes with crap I don't want or need: leather seats, sun roof, stuff like that. A lot come with three rows, I know that's an option but a lot of them on the lot have it.

FWIW it's unlikely to ever see a mechanical LSD for the rear diff. The Toyota 8.2 is a relatively rare diff and every vehicle that it comes in that I know of has the auto-LSD function and most also have ATRAC which both offer more traction than a friction based LSD. Not to say that they are the same thing. Just that the electronic system is good enough that there isn't enough market for a manufacturer like Eaton to build a torsen or clutch based differential for the 8.2 diff carrier. It's a tough sell to the manufacturer based on the volume.

If a rear mechanical lsd is a high priority, the closest you'll get in the Toyota family is going to be a Rav4 Adventure or Limited trim. Those have an active torque vectoring rear differential, so still not a traditional LSD, but arguably a lot better for slippery highway duty. Ironically in some sense, the Lexus IS350awd has the drivetrain you want: torsen center differential and rear torque vectoring awd. I owned one. It was remarkably good on bad roads. Probably the best system I've owned for snow and ice. It's too bad it's never made it into any of their SUVs. I think there's a rwd based lexus crossover in the works that might adopt the IS/GS awd system that could be really good for an all around vehicle.

 

[Tonka23]

:laugh:
:laugh:

I saw a study that concluded trim level is directly related to the size of your junk.

The "higher" the trim level the smaller your junk...period....I would like to argue that I am the exception as I drive a PRO, but.... :crybaby:

Limited owners were not included in the study as they could not find any men willing do admit they drove one....they all claimed it was their spouses vehicle.

I love driving my wife’s limited. Say what you want!! Probably never will need to test the full capability of the full time AWD but nice to have it in the back pocket. Might be narrow thinking but a factor was it shares the most with the GX/Prado platform that has been used and abused throughout the world without the premium gas tag.

On a side note, if they had a pro with ventilated seats….she may have picked that one to be our concrete princess since they look badass!!!

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

I love driving my wife’s limited. Say what you want!! Probably never will need to test the full capability of the full time AWD but nice to have it in the back pocket. Might be narrow thinking but a factor was it shares the most with the GX/Prado platform that has been used and abused throughout the world without the premium gas tag.

On a side note, if they had a pro with ventilated seats….she may have picked that one to be our concrete princess since they look badass!!!

My primary vehicle is my wife’s Limited [emoji6][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stiles_s]

Unless you have slicks, no one should get stuck on wet grass in 2WD lol

If considering the G wagon, why not get a Lexus instead of a 4Runner? Seems much better for your needs

I think I covered the "why not another GX" separately, but for me it was: the Limited:
- 300lbs lighter
- Less luxury crap I don't need and cheaper to maintain (electronic shocks, rear air bags, etc, on the Lexus get pricey)
- More storage/utility and no forced 3rd row
- On balance I'd prefer a Toyota badge vs Lexus re: "under the radar"
It was a close call though.

 

[stiles_s]

I love driving my wife’s limited. Say what you want!! Probably never will need to test the full capability of the full time AWD but nice to have it in the back pocket. Might be narrow thinking but a factor was it shares the most with the GX/Prado platform that has been used and abused throughout the world without the premium gas tag.

On a side note, if they had a pro with ventilated seats….she may have picked that one to be our concrete princess since they look badass!!!

You almost got there
That's like saying "I love riding my FRIEND's moped"

I'll proudly say my Limited is mine

 

[Sempre Nissart]

I think I covered the "why not another GX" separately, but for me it was: the Limited:
- 300lbs lighter
- Less luxury crap I don't need and cheaper to maintain (electronic shocks, rear air bags, etc, on the Lexus get pricey)
- More storage/utility and no forced 3rd row
- On balance I'd prefer a Toyota badge vs Lexus re: "under the radar"
It was a close call though.

All your points are valid for a 4runner limited vs a GX.

Why the G Wagon then? as it is closer to a GX than a 4R

 

[stiles_s]

All your points are valid for a 4runner limited vs a GX.

Why the G Wagon then? as it is closer to a GX than a 4R

My POV on the Gwagen is that it's a think layer on a near military-grade rig. I love things that are 'over built'. I will never get the sound of the doors closing out of my head. It's irrational

Then I see all the house-wife's driving them and reconsider. And the current 2X markup. But, I gotta dream.

 

[downshift]

FWIW it's unlikely to ever see a mechanical LSD for the rear diff. The Toyota 8.2 is a relatively rare diff and every vehicle that it comes in that I know of has the auto-LSD function and most also have ATRAC which both offer more traction than a friction based LSD. Not to say that they are the same thing. Just that the electronic system is good enough that there isn't enough market for a manufacturer like Eaton to build a torsen or clutch based differential for the 8.2 diff carrier. It's a tough sell to the manufacturer based on the volume.

If a rear mechanical lsd is a high priority, the closest you'll get in the Toyota family is going to be a Rav4 Adventure or Limited trim. Those have an active torque vectoring rear differential, so still not a traditional LSD, but arguably a lot better for slippery highway duty. Ironically in some sense, the Lexus IS350awd has the drivetrain you want: torsen center differential and rear torque vectoring awd. I owned one. It was remarkably good on bad roads. Probably the best system I've owned for snow and ice. It's too bad it's never made it into any of their SUVs. I think there's a rwd based lexus crossover in the works that might adopt the IS/GS awd system that could be really good for an all around vehicle.

You're absolutely right, we'll never see this. The brake based traction control (Auto-LSD, ATRAC) is "good enough."

I just like the idea of a computer controlled clutch type LSD better. It sends the power to the wheel with traction. The brake based traction control slows the wheel that's slipping. It uses the brakes to move forward, which is just backwards in my mind... I'd rather use power to move forward.

Again, I know brake based traction control works. It's worked for me. It's good enough.

FYI, the Highlander has a similar system. Seems like it's something they could use in the Limited.

Solving some of those woes in other Toyota all-wheel-drive offerings is Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD with Driveline Disconnect. This surprisingly sophisticated system is found in the RAV4 TRD Off-Road, Adventure, and Limited, as well as the Highlander Limited and Highlander Platinum. As on the more basic system, the all-wheel-drive transfer case is integrated into the transmission, but between it and the driveshaft is a dog clutch that can completely disengage when only front-wheel-drive is needed, reducing drag on the system.

A second dog clutch between the driveshaft and the rear differential further improves the system's flexibility in metering out power appropriately. What's more, clutch packs in the differential itself provide active torque vectoring—when one wheel loses traction and starts spinning, the clutches engage, sending power to the other wheel. By reducing its dependence on the brake-based traction control, the system is even better at keeping the vehicle moving forward.

I'd want some changes to this in a more off-road oriented vehicle like the 4Runner. I'd certainly want some manual control. The new Bronco has an automatic mode (it switches between 2WD and AWD when it senses loss of traction) and a manual mode (it stays in AWD). That would be a requirement. I'd want the 2WD mode to be rear wheel drive though, not front. Obviously it needs a transfer case lock and rear diff lock as well. You get the idea.

Perhaps some trim levels like the Limited could have this, while the TRD versions stay the way they are.

The quote came from here:

Toyota All-Wheel Drive Systems Explained: How They Work

 

[Jetboy]

You're absolutely right, we'll never see this. The brake based traction control (Auto-LSD, ATRAC) is "good enough."

I just like the idea of a computer controlled clutch type LSD better. It sends the power to the wheel with traction. The brake based traction control slows the wheel that's slipping. It uses the brakes to move forward, which is just backwards in my mind... I'd rather use power to move forward.

Again, I know brake based traction control works. It's worked for me. It's good enough.

FYI, the Highlander has a similar system. Seems like it's something they could use in the Limited.



I'd want some changes to this in a more off-road oriented vehicle like the 4Runner. I'd certainly want some manual control. The new Bronco has an automatic mode (it switches between 2WD and AWD when it senses loss of traction) and a manual mode (it stays in AWD). That would be a requirement. I'd want the 2WD mode to be rear wheel drive though, not front. Obviously it needs a transfer case lock and rear diff lock as well. You get the idea.

Perhaps some trim levels like the Limited could have this, while the TRD versions stay the way they are.

The quote came from here:

Toyota All-Wheel Drive Systems Explained: How They Work

I don't think the Highlander lsd is very compatible with a solid axle. Physically it's pretty big so it would be hard to fit. It probably could be done. Most likely would be a torsen style like the Detroit/Eaton trutrac. Those work really well for an LSD. I had one installed on the front of a Toyota pickup along with a rear locker. Interestingly - functionally it was very similar in feel to brake based traction control. I do think the two would work really nicely together as well.

The bronco system is a Bosch torque on demand transfer case most likely. They work well. But they don't meet Toyota's durability requirements. The engagement is clutch based for the front and isn't able to handle heavy use. That's why it voids the warranty to use a snow plow on any f150 with the TOD transfer case. If you get the plow package it removes the TOD transfer case. To compare how Toyota specs their stuff the new tundra transfer case is a size category up from what Ford uses on the F250. Here's a picture below. I know it's a tundra. But the main takeaway is Toyota uses a higher durability level and the TOD Bosch probably doesn't meet the standard. At least not for a bof SUV.

I have the same system a the Highlander in my RX. Works seamlessly for a highway car. It has a locking center diff you can engage and I've done some snow drifting and can verify it does fully lock up. But the whole system is really light duty compared to what's under a 4Runner.

My guess is that no new AWD systems are in the works or ever well be. EVs are the future. What we have now is probably the last generation of AWD systems that aren't EV drive systems.

 

[downshift]

I don't think the Highlander lsd is very compatible with a solid axle. Physically it's pretty big so it would be hard to fit. It probably could be done. Most likely would be a torsen style like the Detroit/Eaton trutrac. Those work really well for an LSD. I had one installed on the front of a Toyota pickup along with a rear locker. Interestingly - functionally it was very similar in feel to brake based traction control. I do think the two would work really nicely together as well.

The bronco system is a Bosch torque on demand transfer case most likely. They work well. But they don't meet Toyota's durability requirements. The engagement is clutch based for the front and isn't able to handle heavy use. That's why it voids the warranty to use a snow plow on any f150 with the TOD transfer case. If you get the plow package it removes the TOD transfer case. To compare how Toyota specs their stuff the new tundra transfer case is a size category up from what Ford uses on the F250. Here's a picture below. I know it's a tundra. But the main takeaway is Toyota uses a higher durability level and the TOD Bosch probably doesn't meet the standard. At least not for a bof SUV.

I have the same system a the Highlander in my RX. Works seamlessly for a highway car. It has a locking center diff you can engage and I've done some snow drifting and can verify it does fully lock up. But the whole system is really light duty compared to what's under a 4Runner.

My guess is that no new AWD systems are in the works or ever well be. EVs are the future. What we have now is probably the last generation of AWD systems that aren't EV drive systems.

Yes, they'd have to beef the Highlander system up a bit to make it suitable for a 4Runner. I should have added that to the section about the changes I'd want in a more off-road oriented vehicle like the 4Runner.

Toyota is fully capable of bringing a system like the Bronco's up to their reliability standards. It might take a couple years to get the bugs out, but they could do it, pretty easily I would think.

On the other hand, you're right about EV's being the future. At this point, Toyota is likely going to skip the Bronco system and go straight to the Rivian system. Put an electric motor at each corner, have it up high and use portal axles, and you'd be invincible.

You also mentioned the Torsen style diff. One thing they could do in the meantime would be to use the Torsen center diff from the Limited in the TRD models. It's strong enough and meets the reliability standards. You have the option to lock or unlock, you don't have that option with the part time system in the TRD models. I'd much rather have the option than not.

I'd like so see a lockable Torsen rear diff as well. But we all know this isn't going to happen.

 

[Steve40th396]

I bought my limited for the fact of its reliability. It will never rock climb or push through a swamp. But, it will see muddy off roads in the country and or snow. It will handle that very well in toyota fashion.
Leather seats, cooled/heated (venting type) are very nice too.
Other than that, I didnt like most of the bumpers on the regular runners.. Some look great when painted black or dark. Personal preference.

 

[supawabb]

Just my 2¢, between the front bumper, full time 4wd, 20 inch wheels, and styling notes, the Limited and Nightshade trim levels seem to be geared more towards the soccer mom types, whereas it seems a good portion of the people that buy 4runners want a more off-road capable rig.

Or for those who live in shit weather climates, and require the full time all wheel drive with winter rubber 6+ months of the year.

 

[stiles_s]

Or for those who live in shit weather climates, and require the full time all wheel drive with winter rubber 6+ months of the year.

100% this. I need all condition and all weather rock solid capabilities. Full stop. I had a ORP previously and shifting into 4wd was quaint but our Audi laughed at it. Mocked it.

Let's be honest, for most the TRD/Pro trims are for those who want the projection of an offroad outdoors lifestyle whether or not they ever hit something a Limited couldn't handle while sipping on your latte. I enjoyed the image too, but went for actual capabilities for my use case the 2nd time 'round.

 

[rushrunner]

Nope. I gots two of them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bumbo]

I think the decision to go away from the Torsen transfer case was a poor move by Toyota for the 5th gen.

Does not make sense to me to take a different direction and get less capability for all trims levels other than the 5th gen Limited.

4th Gen - Torsen
5th Gen Limited - Torsen
GX - Torsen
Landcruiser - Torsen
LX - Torsen

They had it very right in the 4th gen, can still use 2WD, AWD (unlocked), 4WD (locked)

 

[Humble Leader]

Or for those who live in shit weather climates, and require the full time all wheel drive with winter rubber 6+ months of the year.

I read this post, then said yep probably lives in Canada. wasn't disappointed. I actually see more limited level trims than any other trim here. the limited does have some nice features but I think it's the AWD that people want

I've gone numerous times from perfectly dry pavement to steep snowy/slippery hills. could I have done it in 2wd, probably, but it's just nice to have that AWD working all the time for situations like that. similar if you drive on backroads, going from snowy unpaved, to clean pavement, the AWD is nice

anyone that tells you a limited is not capable offroad doesn't really understand these vehicles very well. yes, a rear locker and KDSS and MTS/crawl control do help and give a slight edge, but ATRAC helps close that gap. a limited will keep up with the TRD OR and TRDPRO trims offroad

 

[aggrobot]

Different strokes. I previously had a 2015 taco, and i rarely used it for any serious off-roading. I decided when I went with a 4r, I would be realistic about my specific use-case. Lots of street driving, occasional, very light off-roading, lots of sand and dirt roads, and lots of inclimate weather. All 4runners can easily do this, but I felt the limited best for snow while providing all kinds of creature comforts not offered by the other 4Rs.

Its silly to point to limited and say there are better alternatives out there on paper while overlooking the same fact about any stock 4r. I dont know of a single person that picked up a 4r based on it winning any feature battles on paper. The limited is simply an AWD sr5 with a diminished approach angle because of its styling queues. I personally take far more enjoyment and reward out of the heated/cooled seats leather, dual climate controls, push start, sun roof, and *****in stereo - over rear diff locker i never used. My nightshade is incredibly comfortable, and its fantastic for cross-country driving in all conditions. It’d also be less complicated and expensive to enhance its off-road capabilities than it would for other 4r owners to add the creature comforts I appreciate. #soccermomsunite.