Is it just me or do Limiteds (and Nightshades) have some sort of stigma about them?

[Something_Awesome]

I don't mind the Limited except for one issue: X-reas suspension. With that said, I'd probably prefer an x-reas suspension if KDSS was not available. The stock, non-xreas and non-KDSS 4runner suspension is so soft to me that I'd consider it undrivable. I mean, I'd probably be able to stomach it, but my passengers won't.

This is also my issue with the TRD Pro. While I've heard it's a little bit better than the stock suspension for paved roads, it's still too soft. To me, KDSS was the only option for me for a 4Runner. If you're not doing a lift, if is the way to go for paved roads AND off-roading.

I mean, you can make as long a list of pros and cons as you like, but for me, it was either a 4Runner with KDSS or nothing. This is the view with some other KDSS owners on here as well.

 

[131North]

I sought out an early 5th gen specifically to get a limited in a body style I thought still looked somewhat rugged. The torsen diff solves my biggest driving gripe of making "Michigan left turns" in the winter in 4WD.

 

[MZ2215]

I went from a 4th gen V8 with the full time 4WD to a 5th gen limited and have no regrets. Living in metro detroit the roads are that of a war torn 3rd world country and I don't trust the reliability of most newer domestic stuff. Have family on the west side of the state and wife's family is 2/3's of the way up to the UP. The truck sees more highway than offroad but is more than capable of anything Michigan winters has thrown at it. I have no intentions of rock crawling or mud bogging but it regularly sees and handles dirt roads and fields with confidence and comfort.

 

[stiles_s]

I don't mind the Limited except for one issue: X-reas suspension. With that said, I'd probably prefer an x-reas suspension if KDSS was not available. The stock, non-xreas and non-KDSS 4runner suspension is so soft to me that I'd consider it undrivable. I mean, I'd probably be able to stomach it, but my passengers won't.

This is also my issue with the TRD Pro. While I've heard it's a little bit better than the stock suspension for paved roads, it's still too soft. To me, KDSS was the only option for me for a 4Runner. If you're not doing a lift, if is the way to go for paved roads AND off-roading.

I mean, you can make as long a list of pros and cons as you like, but for me, it was either a 4Runner with KDSS or nothing. This is the view with some other KDSS owners on here as well.

Yeah I think there are some mixes that would have been great. Me, having owned a gx and an orp with kdss (both) I would probably want a limited with a pro body and color and limjted drivetrain and interior (minus the fake wood). Kdss is great for keeping the rig flat in the corners but does nothing for nose dive. I have found xreas pretty impressive at keeping the 4r flat front to rear and side to side. The nose dive on my orp was pretty bad and the xreas takes care of that. Just a hair rough for my liking (orp was smoother) but a great street/dirt/snow/gravel compromise. All great trucks though.


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[Something_Awesome]

Yeah I think there are some mixes that would have been great. Me, having owned a gx and an orp with kdss (both) I would probably want a limited with a pro body and color and limjted drivetrain and interior (minus the fake wood). Kdss is great for keeping the rig flat in the corners but does nothing for nose dive. I have found xreas pretty impressive at keeping the 4r flat front to rear and side to side. The nose dive on my orp was pretty bad and the xreas takes care of that. Just a hair rough for my liking (orp was smoother) but a great street/dirt/snow/gravel compromise. All great trucks though.


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KDSS absolutely reduces nose dive. Test drive a non-KDSS/X-reas 4Runner and slam the brakes.

 

[stiles_s]

KDSS absolutely reduces nose dive. Test drive a non-KDSS/X-reas 4Runner and slam the brakes.

Please explain how a bigger swaybar reduces nose dive (seriously). I've driven my old ORP/KDSS and an SR5 extensively and didn't see a difference in nose dive.

 

[Something_Awesome]

Please explain how a bigger swaybar reduces nose dive (seriously). I've driven my old ORP/KDSS and an SR5 extensively and didn't see a difference in nose dive.

I don't know a whole lot about KDSS aside from what I had observed in a video comparison of braking. I also know how my 4Runner performs under braking and does not keep rocking back and forth the way a non-KDSS does.

If I had to make a guess, the suspensions of a KDSS and non-KDSS 4Runner are not 100% the same even if you factor out KDSS. For all I know, there could be some phenomena occurring with the hydraulic fluid front-to-back similar to what happens left-to-right when the vehicle corners?

My belief is based solely on what I have observed personally and what was demonstrated to me. I am used to driving on back braking suspensions. I can't stomach big nose dives. I am content with the amount of nose-dive to be had in a KDSS 4Runner.

Everyone says the vehicle, technically, should not have less nose dive with KDSS. However, aside from you, KDSS owners almost unanimously agree that there is less nose-dive on KDSS models.

Edit: perhaps I should clarify. Maybe the nose dive itself is the same. My biggest issue is not the nose dive. My issue is the few times a non-KDSS 4Runner continues to bounce after it has come to a complete stop. It's vomit-inducing and is the main reason I had favored Honda over Toyota for most of my life. So when I refer to nose-dive, I am actually referring to the bouncing the 4Runner does. And yes, I know I am mis-using the word nosedive in this case.

 

[supawabb]

I read this post, then said yep probably lives in Canada. wasn't disappointed. I actually see more limited level trims than any other trim here. the limited does have some nice features but I think it's the AWD that people want

I've gone numerous times from perfectly dry pavement to steep snowy/slippery hills. could I have done it in 2wd, probably, but it's just nice to have that AWD working all the time for situations like that. similar if you drive on backroads, going from snowy unpaved, to clean pavement, the AWD is nice

anyone that tells you a limited is not capable offroad doesn't really understand these vehicles very well. yes, a rear locker and KDSS and MTS/crawl control do help and give a slight edge, but ATRAC helps close that gap. a limited will keep up with the TRD OR and TRDPRO trims offroad

Sure do. In Sask where the temps can be +20 Cel during the day and drop to -25 Cel overnight with a snowstorm and sleet.

 

[stiles_s]

I don't know a whole lot about KDSS aside from what I had observed in a video comparison of braking. I also know how my 4Runner performs under braking and does not keep rocking back and forth the way a non-KDSS does.

If I had to make a guess, the suspensions of a KDSS and non-KDSS 4Runner are not 100% the same even if you factor out KDSS. For all I know, there could be some phenomena occurring with the hydraulic fluid front-to-back similar to what happens left-to-right when the vehicle corners?

My belief is based solely on what I have observed personally and what was demonstrated to me. I am used to driving on back braking suspensions. I can't stomach big nose dives. I am content with the amount of nose-dive to be had in a KDSS 4Runner.

Everyone says the vehicle, technically, should not have less nose dive with KDSS. However, aside from you, KDSS owners almost unanimously agree that there is less nose-dive on KDSS models.

Edit: perhaps I should clarify. Maybe the nose dive itself is the same. My biggest issue is not the nose dive. My issue is the few times a non-KDSS 4Runner continues to bounce after it has come to a complete stop. It's vomit-inducing and is the main reason I had favored Honda over Toyota for most of my life. So when I refer to nose-dive, I am actually referring to the bouncing the 4Runner does. And yes, I know I am mis-using the word nosedive in this case.

Forgive me for nerding out on this a little bit. But, especially when I was a kid, I have obsessed over suspension.

Fairly sure that. for the TRD ORP, the difference when you add KDSS is the "big, detachable swaybar". Shocks are the same, suspension geometry is the same. In normal driving the swaybar is locked and therefore it's going to reduce side to side sway. Think of it mechanically linking the height of the left and right sides of a given axle and making it harder for the left/right sides to be at different heights. So, front-to-rear as well as ride isn't effected with one exception: it will be harsher when you hit a bump with a single wheel on an axle (with a bigger swaybar). Now at lower speeds the swaybar "softens", lessening its effect.

I do not know if the SR5 has different shocks than the TRD ORP. I believe they are the same. That would have a bit of an effect on dive as you can "damp" some of it away.

X-REAS rigs have swaybars (smaller than KDSS and IIRC the same as the non-KDSS?) and also a horizontal hydraulic link which works to keep diagonal wheels "at the same height" similar to how a swaybar works (left to right) but done hydraulically and "on the diagonal". What this does is reduce lean and dive pretty darn effectively.

FWIW Audi was an early pioneer and user of this technique under the DRC moniker. Does a great job at its intended purpose. In Audi's case it was used to mask some of the challenges of having a super nose-heavy powertrain. Unfortunately like in Toyota the Audi system is notorious for failure and expensive replacement.

But. Back on topic. #limitedsareforsoccermoms

 

[Lucas TRD Pro]

Its gotta be the bumper.

 

[I4CUTigers]

Forgive me for nerding out on this a little bit. But, especially when I was a kid, I have obsessed over suspension.

Fairly sure that. for the TRD ORP, the difference when you add KDSS is the "big, detachable swaybar". Shocks are the same, suspension geometry is the same. In normal driving the swaybar is locked and therefore it's going to reduce side to side sway. Think of it mechanically linking the height of the left and right sides of a given axle and making it harder for the left/right sides to be at different heights. So, front-to-rear as well as ride isn't effected with one exception: it will be harsher when you hit a bump with a single wheel on an axle (with a bigger swaybar). Now at lower speeds the swaybar "softens", lessening its effect.

I do not know if the SR5 has different shocks than the TRD ORP. I believe they are the same. That would have a bit of an effect on dive as you can "damp" some of it away.

X-REAS rigs have swaybars (smaller than KDSS and IIRC the same as the non-KDSS?) and also a horizontal hydraulic link which works to keep diagonal wheels "at the same height" similar to how a swaybar works (left to right) but done hydraulically and "on the diagonal". What this does is reduce lean and dive pretty darn effectively.

FWIW Audi was an early pioneer and user of this technique under the DRC moniker. Does a great job at its intended purpose. In Audi's case it was used to mask some of the challenges of having a super nose-heavy powertrain. Unfortunately like in Toyota the Audi system is notorious for failure and expensive replacement.

But. Back on topic. #limitedsareforsoccermoms

The reason it helps with nose dive is because the KDSS fixed link on the passenger side and the locked piston on drivers side connect to the frame of the vehicle at the top (just like a normal swaybar) and the LCA’s on the bottom. The larger bar, the more resistance to compression it going to have assuming similar bar material, regardless of whether it’s side to side or front to back. Is it as effective as stiffer springs? No, but it’s physics.

 

[stiles_s]

The reason it helps with nose dive is because the KDSS fixed link on the passenger side and the locked piston on drivers side connect to the frame of the vehicle at the top (just like a normal swaybar) and the LCA’s on the bottom. The larger bar, the more resistance to compression it going to have assuming similar bar material, regardless of whether it’s side to side or front to back. Is it as effective as stiffer springs? No, but it’s physics.

The locked piston is effectively just a "solid bar" with the swaybar bushing on the end. Mechanically, just like the other side w/the solid bar. So, in this mode it is operating as a "thicker swaybar than without KDSS". When the piston unlocks (progressively?) it basically weakens the swaybar.

In all cases, it's applying forces just like a swaybar. Swaybars are designed to enable the suspension to travel freely in compression/rebound without any added friction or force as long as they are "travelling together". The bar "gets involved" when there is a difference in force between the left and right sides of an axle.

 

[I4CUTigers]

The locked piston is effectively just a "solid bar" with the swaybar bushing on the end. Mechanically, just like the other side w/the solid bar. So, in this mode it is operating as a "thicker swaybar than without KDSS". When the piston unlocks (progressively?) it basically weakens the swaybar.

In all cases, it's applying forces just like a swaybar. Swaybars are designed to enable the suspension to travel freely in compression/rebound without any added friction or force as long as they are "travelling together". The bar "gets involved" when there is a difference in force between the left and right sides of an axle.

Let me clarify, a sway bar is designed to rotate under braking forcing, however, the size (more thickness, which increase rotational resistance under the same amount of torque), shape, how they attach, attachment angle, material comp, effect this rotation, adding compression resistance to your suspension, even traveling together. If you look at the KDSS sway bar, it looks more like a bow, than the normal 4runner sway bar which has more of a 90 degree approach into the wheel assembly. The stiffer bar, combined with a more rigid attachment design, makes for more added rotational and compression resistance in this case. I believe this design is different because the engineers knew the KDSS would unlock at low speeds, ensuring the ride wouldn’t be too stiff.

Ignore the yellow arrow, just captured this from google. Swaybar is below the arrow.

Vs

 

[stiles_s]

Let me clarify, a sway bar is designed to rotate under braking forcing, however, the size (more thickness, which increase rotational resistance under the same amount of torque), shape, how they attach, attachment angle, material comp, effect this rotation, adding compression resistance to your suspension, even traveling together. If you look at the KDSS sway bar, it looks more like a bow, than the normal 4runner sway bar which has more of a 90 degree approach into the wheel assembly. The stiffer bar, combined with a more rigid attachment design, makes for more added rotational and compression resistance in this case. I believe this design is different because the engineers knew the KDSS would unlock at low speeds, ensuring the ride wouldn’t be too stiff.

Ignore the yellow arrow, just captured this from google. Swaybar is below the arrow.

Yep. I got you and I'm genuinely curious about this. If anyone has any data on the KDSS front bar setup actually increasing the effective spring rate, I'm all ears.

What you are describing would actually add resistance to wheel travel in compression AND rebound which I highly doubt toyota did. Yes, the attachment point is different at the outer end "the end of the lever arm if you will". I'm guessing that's partly due to the standard swaybar linkage not being able to handle the forces involved in teh KDSS bar.

Under the bellows, you see that rubber bushing. That allows the swaybar to rotate freely without friction. IMO it'd be a huge mistake for toyota to actually try to keep that swaybar "rigid" rather than moving freely with the front suspension (again, as long as the two front wheels are moving at the same rate). The "job" it does is to keep the two front wheels "mechanically linked" and at roughly the same "height" left to right, but to allow free vertical movement of the front "axle".

Oh, and #limitedsareforsoccermoms

 

[Steve40th396]

Limited people are the 1%ers. They live rough lives, sitting in Starbucks drive throughs with AC or Heaters full blast in the harshest environments.
They have their groceries brought to their cars and get Lexus Rx for a loaner when they get cabin filter and oil changes.
Their dogs are with them, poodles, no claws.
They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

 

[stiles_s]

Limited people are the 1%ers. They live rough lives, sitting in Starbucks drive throughs with AC or Heaters full blast in the harshest environments.
They have their groceries brought to their cars and get Lexus Rx for a loaner when they get cabin filter and oil changes.
Their dogs are with them, poodles, no claws.
They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

LOL. Well done, sir.

 

[aggrobot]

They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

Thankfully, being the highfalutin limited owner that i am means im not out of my bathrobe long enough figure out how to dump another 4-6K into my ride. Basically what amounts to about a thousand dollars for every camping trip on which it’ll actually go.

But long after the KOA’s lonely call no longer reaches your deaf plebeian ears, the thrill of 13 MPG will tickle your wallet, teasing a fleeting hope on your drive to the pawn shop, where you will sell the guitar you never played to make your next payment.

 

[Bas_G]

Living in place that sees snow 5 months out of the year, the limited is -by far- the best option due to the driveline. And it shows in the sales numbers. The vast majority of runners I see in my area are limiteds. The added creature comforts are nice to have, but not super critical. I can live without the front bumper.
Reality is that a large portion of us swap out the wheels anyway. I sold mine to a Tacoma owner within a week.

With a lot of car models, the upper tier actually offers some value, but with the 4Runner... meh. We could argue about the crawl control that nobody uses, but a TRD pro is pretty much a couple of cosmetic tidbits and some basic upgrades in the suspension. You can get better lockers and lift in the after market and build a better car for less money than the TRD pro premium. And ideally you'd start with a limited :lmao:

The nightshade though. A lip spoiler? Really? Lowering a high clearance car is a little ... weird.

 

[Humble Leader]

Living in place that sees snow 5 months out of the year, the limited is -by far- the best option due to the driveline. And it shows in the sales numbers. The vast majority of runners I see in my area are limiteds. The added creature comforts are nice to have, but not super critical. I can live without the front bumper.
Reality is that a large portion of us swap out the wheels anyway. I sold mine to a Tacoma owner within a week.

With a lot of car models, the upper tier actually offers some value, but with the 4Runner... meh. We could argue about the crawl control that nobody uses, but a TRD pro is pretty much a couple of cosmetic tidbits and some basic upgrades in the suspension. You can get better lockers and lift in the after market and build a better car for less money than the TRD pro premium. And ideally you'd start with a limited :lmao:

The nightshade though. A lip spoiler? Really? Lowering a high clearance car is a little ... weird.

I wish all trims came with a rear locker. crawl control and MTS I can live without. the AWD of the limited with the ability to lock centre and rear differential would be nice

 

[lewdog998]

I wish all trims came with a rear locker. crawl control and MTS I can live without. the AWD of the limited with the ability to lock centre and rear differential would be nice

two things....
1. This weekend I witnessed first hand the magic of crawl control. I was guiding an inexperienced Taco trd off road (stock with BFG ko2) uphill an off camber bouldered shelf road (with about a foot to spare on the ledge side. It was definitely tricky. Anyways they got caught on the last boulder, driver side in the air, rears locked and loosing traction and only the front passenger unable to make it half way up the boulder. We engaged crawl and he let off brake, magically it made it up with no issues. It definitely works in sticky situations.

2. my girlfriends brother has a very nice limited....he said he wished he had gotten a TRD as the limited is too much of a a soccer mom car. I told him I though that it was his wifes car anyways lol.